Thoughts on 4.0 now that the fervor has died down a bit

[neil]

3e would allow a gnome bard to be built with 1 book. 4e you can do it with 3 books. Inherently 3e gives players many more options, and 4e does not.

 

On the same note, try building an Eladrin Warlock, or Dragonborn Warlord using the 3e players hand book only.

 

In our 3E campaign we have a Sun Elf Warlock, built using 3 books. In 4E this would be 1 book. True story. There was also a Halfling Bard but he quit playing it and swapped to a human cleric, because Bards in 3E were useless. (I'd wather wait for them to do the classes right than have them rushed out in the first book unbalanced <cough>Ranger</cough>.

[Reaperbryan]

As a guy who has over 20 3e books, and has switched to 4e, the notion of needing 2-3 books doesn't bother me. Besides, it's not I need to shell out $100 for 3 books now. Buy PHB 1 now. Get PHB 2 when it comes out in a few months. IIRC, PHB2 is supposed to have new Races and Classes - so it may very well have the Gnome and the Bard back in one place. and if not, ok, borrow the DM's MM for 5 minutes to scribble out the notation for Gnome from the back of the book.

 

You can't afford $70? ok. put it on the "installment plan" - two easy payments of $35. $35 now, $35 in two months.

 

DUH.

 

Also I agree with Neil. OK 4e Gnome Bard = Difficult at the moment. But likewise, Tiefling *anything* required 2 books, and Tieflings were among the most popular of races polled at WotC forums pre-4e. So whine that a new system with less than 6 books out right now isn't as flexible as your system that's 8yrs old with over 50 books. You're right. Hey - I can't make a Goliath Psion either. Why isn't anybody screaming about the dozens of supplemental races and classes that don't exist? Oh - because apparently CORE is SUPPOSED to remain unchanged forever. OK. I'll tell that to my 3e bard that he can't exist because he was never CORE before 3e.

 

Yep. For 4e to have any credibility, Elf needs to be a Class again, not a Race! </sarcasm>

[Lars Porsenna]

No my "whine" is that there is less CONTENT in the 4e PHB than the 3e PHB. While we're on the subject of gnomes, and classes no longer core, this has a detrimental impact on our ongoing campaign, so much so it is on semi-permanent hiatus while we decide if we want to convert to pathfinder. Big reason being is that we have multiple characters that cannot be converted. This was not a problem in the conversion fom 2e to 3e.

 

And please, no "just start a new campaign!" Since we have already 10+ years of developemtn in our current campaign, scrapping it for something else is not palatable.

 

I also disagree the 3e Bard was useless. It was a support character. If you want to play a combat bruiser, don' play Bards. Having played several, they were quite useful.

 

Damon.

[Reaperbryan]

No my "whine" is that there is less CONTENT in the 4e PHB than the 3e PHB. While we're on the subject of gnomes, and classes no longer core, this has a detrimental impact on our ongoing campaign, so much so it is on semi-permanent hiatus while we decide if we want to convert to pathfinder. Big reason being is that we have multiple characters that cannot be converted. This was not a problem in the conversion fom 2e to 3e.

 

And please, no "just start a new campaign!" Since we have already 10+ years of developemtn in our current campaign, scrapping it for something else is not palatable.

 

I also disagree the 3e Bard was useless. It was a support character. If you want to play a combat bruiser, don' play Bards. Having played several, they were quite useful.

 

Damon.

Um, May I ask why your group doesn't just keep using the books they were using when the game started? I mean, I'm sorry, but the ink didn't vanish, and the arguemnt "the game isn't supported" means nothing. The books say the same thing they said when yall chose that edition years ago.

[kristof65]

They had to go to a larger font for all of us old timers still playing.

I'm actually surprised they went with a larger font, since the old timers who benefit from it weren't their target market for the game.

 

On the same note, try building an Eladrin Warlock, or Dragonborn Warlord using the 3e players hand book only.

I think that's the real crux of the complaint about Bards, Gnomes and Half-orcs not being in the first PHB - they were replaced with things that don't have nearly as much D&D history as Bards, Gnomes and Half-Orcs. I think everyone realizes that certain class/race combinations are going to have to use multiple books - but we still haven't gotten a good explaination as to why that's the case in 4e with some very iconic race/class combinations.

 

I also disagree the 3e Bard was useless. It was a support character. If you want to play a combat bruiser, don' play Bards. Having played several, they were quite useful.

I agree with Lars here. 3e Bards are quite useful when played to their proper role. My own bard made our party much, much more effective in many situations. It finally got to the point that our GM had our long term enemies concentrate on taking my character out first, because they knew that taking him out lessened the effectiveness of everyone in the party.

[kristof65]

And please, no "just start a new campaign!" Since we have already 10+ years of developemtn in our current campaign, scrapping it for something else is not palatable.

Um, May I ask why your group doesn't just keep using the books they were using when the game started? I mean, I'm sorry, but the ink didn't vanish, and the arguemnt "the game isn't supported" means nothing. The books say the same thing they said when yall chose that edition years ago.

The issue I've had with this is new players. Every group I've been in has some sort of turnover, and eventually it becomes harder to recruit new players if you're playing an older edition.

[Lars Porsenna]

The issue I've had with this is new players. Every group I've been in has some sort of turnover, and eventually it becomes harder to recruit new players if you're playing an older edition.

 

Exactly.

 

We had a choice: do we want to play a supported game and open ourselves up to recruitment, and play an (IMHO) sucky ruleset, or do we keep playing 3.5e and become the grognards in cons like the 1e crowd?

 

That unfortunately is the choice we had to make. So instead we're playing Saga Star Wars. If D&D 4e was more like this, than what it became, we would probably still be playing D&D (even though it would stop being my favorite ruleset...Saga is OK, but certain aspects annoy me)...

 

Damon.

[Gimp]

There were plenty of other problems and complaints about the changes from 2nd to 3rd. The more established the campaign, the bigger the issues.

 

3rd made new race and class options much easier. For some, that was a big plus. For others, it was a royal pain in the neck. Yes, the GM had final say on whether someone could play a part-dragon, part-pixie, part-goblin, part-giant whatever, but I also remember the laments of GM's having to deal with players that kept pushing for characters that made no sense, but could be created.

 

Some campaigns took the options, and ran with them. Others simply wanted traditional fantasy races without having to mix in a plethora of now official home brewed races. For many changing from a 2nd to 3rd campaign, but keeping their established characters, all those additional rules for other races were waste they'd prefer having replaced with content they could use.

 

Anyone questioning the value of the bard in 3rd needs only to watch The Gamers: Dorkness Rising, and see that the class is awesome. Actually, bards worked for people who liked them. Some people didn't, without those people being the combat bruiser only types.

 

And again, a big part of the problem is the percieved value of the content in the 4th books. How much of 3rd would have to be shoved into the 4th PHB for it to be worth $35? For many people, what's there is quite a deal. It's not a scientific survey, but in talking to local stores, 4th is doing every bit as well as 3rd ever did. That suggests a lot of people think it's worth the price. Not everyone, and not all the old players, but it is selling. Because it is a new product, WotC overall may not be profitting as much as they probably will once it's better established, but that happens with any change like this.

 

There was so much put out for 3rd that any combination of material in 4th would have to risk leaving some consumer segment unhappy, or price themselves out of the market putting out tons of material and charging functionally for it.

 

I would have no interest in a $100 PHB.

 

Yes, they could put in more material, and still charge less, but they also have to pay their bills, employee salaries, etc and still make a profit to invest in further products. I mentioned the change to 3rd, when they took a big risk, and charged only $20 for the core books while the game was just getting started. It was a gutsy move, and I have no idea how long it took them to recover from it. They lost money while they tried to establish 3rd. That made it that much harder to advance 3rd until it was better established.

 

They had to go to a larger font for all of us old timers still playing.

 

I'm actually surprised they went with a larger font, since the old timers who benefit from it weren't their target market for the game.

Maybe they weren't leaving us out after all.

 

Gnomes, half-orcs, and bards being in a different book is not that surprising. Yes, they have a lot of history with D&D. Yes, they were very popular with some players. They were never the primary races or class in the game, however, but rather interesting options before the horde of options released with 3rd. The bard was an extreme rarity to begin with, simply because it was almost impossible to qualify for. It took time before the bard became an easily playable class.

 

Keeping them out would be very surprising. Leaving them until a later book is not. WotC is a business, and has to make a profit. They are owned by Hasbro, and have to show a stronger market strategy than many game companies will use to keep their corporate masters happy.

 

Giving solid content for a large part of the market was important for the 4th PHB. Having material that would make the PHB2 more interesting for the overall market was also important. Keeping minor, but iconic, race and class options until PHB2 is a good business move. Some groups won't care, and will play happily without them.

 

Some will want them enough to buy the new book, either for history's sake, or because they love the options. Several that might not worry about PHB2, however, will at least be intrigued because they are there. Those you can make look are more likely to buy.

 

Any group that wants them need only buy one copy of the book. Keeping each book under $40 makes the price much more palatable. Keeping each book interesting is what will finally sell them.

 

WotC is not trying to alienate their players. They are trying to market a viable product in a way that will keep customers, and allow them to grow. Each book they put out has to have enough percieved value for players to buy it, or WotC loses out even more than the players. Players do this for fun. WotC does it to live.

[bikerdrew]

At the risk of being inflamatory I'd like to say that 3 - 3.5ed is an improvement over 2nd ed (which was okay at the time). I've converted my old 2nd ed Greyhawk stuff to 3 -3.5 and it works just fine. I won't be converting to 4th ed because I just really don't like the rules and don't want to fork out for another rules 'upgrade' - it's that simple. I guess it saddens me a little that new players may never experience the older rules editions as they are no longer 'officially' suported. I can still get 2nd ed books and scenarios and I'm sure I'll be able to get 3 - 3.5 stuff for years to come.

 

Failing that, I'll just convert everything to BRP and create more-or-less finished characters from the off, rather than worrying about level increases all the time, and wondering when the next version of the game will be out so I can upgrade again.

 

So, shall we run a bet on when WOTC bring out 5th ed?

[Lars Porsenna]

My guess 6yrs, or whenever they publish every logical supplement (whatever comes first).

 

Damon.

[Erion]

So, shall we run a bet on when WOTC bring out 5th ed?

 

Probably in about 7-8 years.

 

Like it or not, WotC is now a corporate entitiy, and that means buzzwords like "product life cycle" and "return on investment". When they've milked 4th edition for all the money they can get from it, we'll see 5th edition start to take shape. And I'll probably upgrade to that one, too. I've having more fun with 4th edition than I can remember having in years. Despite lots of initial grumbling about the online tools, I find the 4th Edition Online Compendium and Bonus tools to be very useful, and the Beta I've seen of the Character builder is very snazzy and easy to use. When they finally get their act together and get the online component finished (even if you don't actually play online), being a DM is going to be easier and more fun than ever. My next adventure doesn't have a single MM "stock" creature in it, courtesy of the online Monster Builder. And who needs books? Pay $4.95 per month and get all the info via the compendium. As of right now the November Releases (including the very crunchy Martial Power are all in there.

[kristof65]

There was so much put out for 3rd that any combination of material in 4th would have to risk leaving some consumer segment unhappy, or price themselves out of the market putting out tons of material and charging functionally for it.

Gnomes, half-orcs, and bards being in a different book is not that surprising. Yes, they have a lot of history with D&D. Yes, they were very popular with some players. They were never the primary races or class in the game, however, but rather interesting options before the horde of options released with 3rd. The bard was an extreme rarity to begin with, simply because it was almost impossible to qualify for. It took time before the bard became an easily playable class.

 

Keeping them out would be very surprising. Leaving them until a later book is not. WotC is a business, and has to make a profit. They are owned by Hasbro, and have to show a stronger market strategy than many game companies will use to keep their corporate masters happy.

I personally think most of the gamers who are complaining about the lack of Bard, Gnome and Half-Orc would have been more accepting of the situation if Tieflings, Eladrin, Warlocks and Warlords had been left out of the PHB1, too. It's one thing to lament something being left out, quite another to see it left out, and replaced with something else.

 

I can still get 2nd ed books and scenarios and I'm sure I'll be able to get 3 - 3.5 stuff for years to come.

 

I do think that 3.5 will remain a viable option for even new players in the years to come, much more so than 2e ever was after 3e came out. This should be even more true if Paizo's Pathfinder does well, and stays reasonably compatible. Unlike 2e, which being almost fully supported by a single company and no potential for any third party to profit from putting out additional supplements, 3.5e will not only continue to have support from its fans, but the OGL means that those who want to can profit from providing that support without much fear of recrimination.

 

So, shall we run a bet on when WOTC bring out 5th ed?

Put me down for an announcement of 5e no later than GenCon 2013, with a release no later than 2014.

 

I'm not confident enough to go with a completely new edition by 2012, but I have this feeling we'll see some sort of large change/rewrite by mid 2012.

[kristof65]

And who needs books? Pay $4.95 per month and get all the info via the compendium. As of right now the November Releases (including the very crunchy Martial Power are all in there.

 

I see this becoming an issue for the next edition, though I'm not sure if it will be for WotC, or for us consumers. Why? Well, Bryan said it right here:

Um, May I ask why your group doesn't just keep using the books they were using when the game started? I mean, I'm sorry, but the ink didn't vanish, and the arguement "the game isn't supported" means nothing. The books say the same thing they said when yall chose that edition years ago.

WotC wants that revenue from the monthly subscriptions. That means their tools need to be something that all their players WANT to use. But the more the tools get incorporated in the current edition, the more it means that 4e might not remain playable after 5e is released. Or at least not as playable as it seemed with the tools.

 

What happens when 5th edition time rolls around? What does WotC do with their online tools? Those who've been paying the monthly subscription and using them - particularly if they haven't bought or needed the supporting books - may be left high and dry if the tools all get converted to a new edition. What happens to the players when that happens? In order to use the tools, they may have convert campaigns. If WotC doesn't plan the change out right, that could cost them a lot of unhappy customers - who may or may not pay for the next rendition of the tools.

 

I have no real way of even pretending to predict what will happen, but there are several possible directions things could go:

 

- 4e to 5e change would be largely cosmetic, in order to keep the tools compatible.

- 4e support gets dropped altogether, which potentially costs WotC a revenue stream they've come to rely on when 4e customers flee.

- WotC somehow decides to continue to support those 4e tools - something I consider highly unlikely given that an edition change will almost certainly be driven by a sales need.

 

and so on...

[Erion]

I think that we'll very likely see any new editions be mostly cosmetic (and maybe some balancing) changes precisely because of the infrastructure that WotC is putting in place with the online gaming tools. I wouldn't be surprised to see 5th edition be MOSTLY electronic with only very specific materials in print. Maybe Print-on-demand as well.

 

4th edition is very much a modular system. It's very easy to model it as a relational database where everything plugs-in to a specific port on a character. Making all the class abilities powers makes it very easy to change the inevitable unbalancing aspects of certain powers while leaving the bulk of the class unchanged. It's also very easy to add new options to existing classes by defining new powers and builds that use them. WotC learned some valuable lessons from MMORPGs and has applied them beautifully.

 

For example, Martial Power does a great job of filling in some of the blanks people would have liked to see in the PHB. My 6th-level Artful Dodger Rogue doesn't need to be rebuilt becuase of what is in the book, but now I have interesting options that feed into my character concept at the next couple of levels as opposed to settling with options that didn't really fit with how I play him. This is as opposed to the 3/3.5 "splatbooks" that provided a couple of new things to do with existing classes and dozens of silly prestige classes that required all sort of min-maxing for qualifications. In 4th you're still mostly a rogue or priest or whatever right up through 30th level. Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies let you add some flavor without redefining your character. We're very excited to see what they do with the divine and arcane classes next year before the PHB2 hits.

[Gimp]

There was so much put out for 3rd that any combination of material in 4th would have to risk leaving some consumer segment unhappy, or price themselves out of the market putting out tons of material and charging functionally for it.

Gnomes, half-orcs, and bards being in a different book is not that surprising. Yes, they have a lot of history with D&D. Yes, they were very popular with some players. They were never the primary races or class in the game, however, but rather interesting options before the horde of options released with 3rd. The bard was an extreme rarity to begin with, simply because it was almost impossible to qualify for. It took time before the bard became an easily playable class.

 

Keeping them out would be very surprising. Leaving them until a later book is not. WotC is a business, and has to make a profit. They are owned by Hasbro, and have to show a stronger market strategy than many game companies will use to keep their corporate masters happy.

I personally think most of the gamers who are complaining about the lack of Bard, Gnome and Half-Orc would have been more accepting of the situation if Tieflings, Eladrin, Warlocks and Warlords had been left out of the PHB1, too. It's one thing to lament something being left out, quite another to see it left out, and replaced with something else.

That's part of my point. Some new material, or at least some equivalencies to 3rd's character race capability, and some old held to build interest for later books.

 

If all of the popular and traditional races and classes were in PHB1, there would be less enticment for people to grow their game with PHB2.

 

Leaving some teaser material for the later book enhances its marketability, and reduces the risk of a book full of just new stuff.

 

There will be lots of supplements for 4th. It's become close to an industry standard, and a practice that has stayed with D&D since the beginning. Every supplement that can garner interest before it's published is a boon for WotC.