The black knight

[Tiarnan]

In JOR 1 there is a description of a variant Knight used by the Templars with the gun from the warlord instead of a flamer and the missiles stripped off.  this seemed like a fun project, and a pretty good low cost CAV.  I was wondering if anyone had played with these and had any opinions.

 

Thanks.

[Black Lightning 2]

Should be pretty easy to scratch build.

 

You simply buy a couple of Warlord Gun Arms from the boneyard and take a Dramel to the missile packs...  Voala! :D

 

The added firepower, the Rexus III PBG affords, might be really cool to have on something as quick and as stout as a Knight.

 

Say, Chrome, have you ever thought of setting up some Army Builder files for some of the Variants listed in the JoR1???

Would these be considered official CAVs if someone brough a listed variant into a Tournament??

[nadinbrzezinski]

My first inclination woudl be to say yes, but .... I can only think of the nightmare in that other game... what is it now 700 potencial variants?

[Black Lightning 2]

My first inclination woudl be to say yes, but .... I can only think of the nightmare in that other game... what is it now 700 potencial variants?

HG and BTech both were rife with variants of one form or another.

I'm not sure if I'd call it a nightmare.  'Cause it would be kind of cool to have a little more variation to the stock chassis that we see.

Just as long as it isn't some crazy variant that essentially does the same thing as another machine...  Or has a components package that is so whack, that it doesn't even /look/ like the previous machine anymore.

 

In this case, the Black Knight is a good variant to have.

[Chrome]

Say, Chrome, have you ever thought of setting up some Army Builder files for some of the Variants listed in the JoR1???

That's a pretty good idea, but it'll have to wait until I finish up the JoR2 minis.  :(

[Tiarnan]

That is pretty much what I was thinking.  I was wondering if you could use one of these guys in a tournament setting.  

 

Could I use one in the Warmaster competition for example?

 

Although the more I look at it, the more I like it.  It's a nice CAV for 202 points.  Time to visit the online store to buy some bits.

[Tiarnan]

On the subject of variants in other games, I have to supress a shudder every time I hear of a "variant" that starts by replacing the internal structure and engine.  Unfortunately in that game there are precedents for this in published materials.

[Leech]

The Black Knight still has one Rexus PBG, it just has a Rexus III PBG instead of the flamer. This I'd consider a straight weapon swap and would allow it in a Tournament etc, but the Red Panther I wouldn't, simply because we've no details on the exact modifications.

 

The thing with variants is that they're mentioned in the fluff but we don't have Data Cards for them. If we did, then they'd obviously count as an official CAV, but otherwise I'd have to turn them down..... especially the Battle Lord which is mentioned. Plus, I'd not make them except from the 20% charge for weapon swaps.... again unless Reaper put them in a JoR or on the Proving Grounds or something.

[ironmani]

This is pretty funny cuz I was reading the JOR1 and thought this would be a cool CAV to do! Glad I am not the only one!  :D

[Chrome]

That is pretty much what I was thinking.  I was wondering if you could use one of these guys in a tournament setting.  

 

Could I use one in the Warmaster competition for example?

That's entirely up to the BL member that is running the tournament.  Some allow all kinds of modifications, some allow only certain things.

 

For the official WarMaster at Origins, IIRC, you can swap out all weapons and systems, provided that you model them correctly.  So as long as you put the right PGB on your Knight, you'd be OK.

[Spire]

the Red Panther I wouldn't, simply because we've no details on the exact modifications.

 

Well, the Red Panther fluff in the main book states that they (the Red Spades) replace the LBGs with DFMs and add armor.  Armor upgrade is pretty easy.  The only small chassis DFMs we have to chose from is the Doric VI, a rather respectable improvement for the Panther's level of firepower vs. Hard Targets while keeping the same power requirements.  

 

What makes this conversion difficult, is the Raptor mounts the Doric VIs and are cast as one peice with the body.  Break out your saws, kiddies!  For 263 points, it's not to bad.

[Leech]

True Spire, but this I'd not make exempt from the +50% points cost for the weapon swap, if I were allowing weapon swaps in the first place.

 

And for the same points, I'd rather take a Raptor, add an CL pod and the TL comp from a Talon and it'd be cheaper still :o)

[Spire]

Ahhh, but then you wouldn't have a Red Panther!

 

Not allowing weapon swaps?  What gives?  That's the whole reason behind having the weapon packs from Reaper.  I've heard about some house rules but come on guy, that's one of the core rules you're messing with.

 

And that's also why we really don't need to list 700+ variants.  With electronics, power plant, and weapons being modular, the potential list of variants is huge.

 

Things I've been bouncing around:

 

Morning Star (Flail Variant)

Dump DFM and add a 2nd IDF.  Let's be honest.  The Flail shouldn't see a valid line of sight, or it's dead.  While it's hiding, now it can really pummel something.

 

Ghast-AA

Dump the G/19 and add a G/27.  Now you can eliminate those Tsusekis with the greatest of ease.

 

Ghast-AT

Dump the G/27 and add a G/19.  Now ruthlessly rip a hard target a new one.

 

Unnamed Spider Variant

Drop the two DFMs and add two IFM Packs.

 

Like I said, the potential list of "legal" variants is near endless.  It is only limited by your modelling skill, determination and how much $$ you want to spent.

[Black Lightning 2]

Not allowing weapon swaps?  What gives?  That's the whole reason behind having the weapon packs from Reaper.  I've heard about some house rules but come on guy, that's one of the core rules you're messing with.

Allowing upgrades or customization, of any type, is entirely up to the Event Organizer.

 

In this case, I agree with Frank.

 

Weapon and component swaps are cool and fun, but, they're an open invitaiton to the munchkins.

 

If it's a published variant, I'm all about it.  If you prefer weapon swaps and component upgrades in your games, rock on.

But, for me?  Leave your custom cheese boxes at home.  

[Leech]

Spire, your Spider variant is illegal. You're replacing two DFM's which are mounted on primary mounts with IFM's which are secondary mount weapons.... the construction and modification rules state that IFM's can never be mounted on primary mounts, and until that rule is changed (if ever) you'll not see any dedicated IFM toting CAV's.... this is why we need to study the component tables in the back of the JoR's... they tell you what's a secondary and what's a primary weapon. Your other mods may be illegal for this same reason as well, I doubt it but it's possible.

 

As for customised CAV's and such, it depends on the event. If I am running a tournament/league/whatever for new players then I'll probably exclude extensive weapon swapping etc in order to keep the playing field level (since both Stuart and I can make up CAV's which kick arse and take names using this... like Mike said, it's cheesy) but if it's St Valentine's Day Carnage (the UK's equivalent to the Warmaster) then I'll probably allow them.

 

One thing I won't compromise on though, is I expect each and every weapon swap, or visible modification, to be modelled on the figure, and I require painted figures. This is another reason I don't allow them in level 1 tournaments or events.

 

But in a level 2 (my own terminology), I expect each and every one to be modelled, and I don't just mean arm swaps... the weapons themselves need to be modified/swapped without compromising the figure's lines etc..... and I also expect exact (and printed) Data Cards which I can check myself before allowing the figure.

 

If people want to buy an extra set of Dictator arms and a Tyrant and cut the guns off and then cut the lasers out of the Tyrant's arms and mount the cannons in there then I won't stop them. In fact, I'd possibly applaud them.... but unless they've done this I won't allow them in a tournament. Any dingle can swap arms on a figure, but only a really serious (and 99% of the time a non-cheesy munchkin) will spend that time and effort to get that advantage.

 

This is one of the reasons I frown upon crew upgrades, and I'm still trying to figure a way to convincingly model +1 ARM and still stay within the universe fluff.

 

The Red Panther and Black Knight are, like the BL Dictator, factory refits. Without an official Data Card, then it ain't gonna happen.... not unless I get really drunk and allow home-baked CAV's into a tournament :o)

 

####, I charge myself the extra premium on Trolls for crying out loud. They're supposed to be Bad Blood commissioned factory refits of Ogres.... but I won't use the home-bake rules so I penalise myself like I would anyone else.