The black knight

[Froggy the Great]

A Troll?  Please elaborate.

[Spire]

Now, Mike, keep the derogatory comments to yourself, or at least in private.  Or you won't make my Christmas Card list!

 

My mistake, the Spider's DFMs are listed as primary.  Got confused between the Fire IIs and the Fire IIIs.  Same stats, points etc, different mount.  Why caffeine is not a substitue for sleep.  

 

The Ghast refits are both secondary weapons, and if you can tell the differance LMK.  The weapons look identical to me.

 

The Flail refits are both secondary systems.

 

And BTW, the Flamer on the Wolverine is a "Primary", right?

 

 

Personally, I don't see problems allowing the mods, especially with the Army Builder files that print the data cards (aren't these official?) for you.  Just be careful, the like weapon swaps don't factor in the +20% cost on the version we have.  Chrome is working hard on the next version and I know he'll try to fix this.  (hint-hint, nudge-nudge)

 

I look at it this way, if someone wants to dump the extra 20-50% point cost in weapon swaps and such, have at.  Heck, the changing of electronics will give you the equivalent of a WSO upgrade for far less points, except for the IF Drift results.  Wait.  Isn't that "cheesy" or "munchkinism"?  You are right.  Best just ban them.  Better yet, let's re-write the whole system, it's so obviously broken only an idiot could not see it. :p

 

That's the knid of slope we are getting on, people.  Mods should not be a problem, we are running "Official Tournaments".  I don't ever remember seeing the guys running Rogue Trader tourneys saying that "Space Marine armies are not allowed, they are cheesy and broken."  I like the mods, becuase they add flavor to a rather thin universe.  Though I never thought my White Knight mod, with it's +0/+1 IFM packs, would be considered the most powerful IF unit in the CAV universe (as declared by a fellow AO).

 

As for "published" variants, there are a total of three, I think.  The Red Panther, the Black Knight and a Talon with a CL pod.  None with "officially" published Data Cards.  The BL Dictator is a Dictator with a weapon swap you don't have to pay extra for.

 

For the +1 ARM mod, I use some thin plastic card and selectivly place some on the mini.  Not sure if you ever had a chance to get close to a M1IP, M1A1 or a M1A1 "Heavy", or if you have ever seen pics of the "Dolly Parton" T-72M (?) or Merkava.  But that is pretty much what they do, weld (or sometimes bolt) on extra plates.  

 

My Cheiftans and a Katana are outfitted that way.  And with CAVs "priority armoring" system, a few extra plates here and there are all that's really needed, IMO.  On the Katana I put plates on the rear center torso area, on the front of each shoulder pauldron, on either side of the cockpit and in the gaps between the raised surfaces of the shin area.  It's enough to provide a visual difference between a standard Katana and my up-armored "cheese box".  

 

Check out the top of p138, JoR#1 for suggestions on modifying your units.

 

What is a "Troll"?  An Ogre with a Maxim 1 in place of the centerline PBG?

[Leech]

Army Builder is in no way official, it's a third party product... and for the reasons you stated I don't consider them official. I have a calculator on me, and my mind if I'm feeling energentic but I always work out the cost of mods myself. Yes the common things (armour, movement and crew) are all working okay, but the unit customisation stuff still doesn't work properly in the AB files I have, so I won't trust them with the calculations.

 

The Red Panther, Black Knight and Battle Lord are all, like the BL Dictator, supposed to be factory refits.... hence the lack of extra points for the weapon swaps. The Talon with the CL pod is simply a Talon with a CL pod, it isn't difficult and it's nothing that can't be done with every other CAV in the game... #### I could mount one on a Rhino. It'd be completely useless, but it'd be legal.

 

The point I'm trying to make is that a 'variant' is a factory refitted unit with a different weapons loadout. This means you don't have the extra premium for swapping weapons... hence cheaper. The BL Dictator's certificate and Data Card stated that the BL Dictator din't have to pay the extra 20%, but if mounted on another CAV then you did.... because this isn't a factory refitted unit any more, it's a field refitted one.

 

As for weapon swaps in general, I have no real problem with them. The problem I do have though, is the same problem Stuart has with the MechForce Mechs I used to use when playing CBT.... they're made so they have no faults.

 

To see what I mean, take the Rhino. It's tough as nails and it'll put you in a world of hurt any day of the week and twice on sunday, but with 32" range and slow movement, it's balanced the powerful guns and heavy armour. The same goes for the Dictator 2/BL Dictator, you have to take damage by engageing Emergency Power in order to get that cool statline.

 

You used the Space Marines as an example, well I'm sorry, but they ain't broken.... they're meant to be that hard. Take my Space Wolves as an example. Sure, they're tough as nails in close combat and can handle most units, but they ain't unbeatable, they're almost powerless in the shooting phase and they're expensive as ####. Take my Blood Claws, they've got +2 attacks on the charge, instead of the usual +1, but that's balanced by their low skills and leadership. Then take a Vanilla Marine army, they're well rounded but they can't get any better at one or the other without sacrificing stuff. Now any 40k player will tell you, the official printed rules for close combat are way too powerful (three cheers for the new Trial Assault Rules), so perhaps I don't get penalised enough with my Space Wolves, but the prinicple is the same.... you gets what you pay for, and you pay for what you get, one way or the other :o)

 

As a balancing act, not allowing weapon swaps (or any other swap for that matter) in some events, this allows the new players to get to grips fully with competitive play and the situation they're involved in and it also has the effect of relieving the experienced player of his specialised tools. ####, in a Warmaster, I'd probably field weapon swapped units and stuff, but in one of my beginners' tournaments I prohibit them.

 

And another reason I personally don't allow customisation in some things, I have to go through each and every Data Card used by each and every player and make sure they're correct..... you claim putting a +4 TL into something with a +3 TL is cheaper than a WSO upgrade, well perhaps it is in some circumstances, but at 1.2/1.5 times the new TL's cost, it shouldn't be.

[ironmani]

Yeah yeah yeah, but tell us more about the Troll o Great and Powerful Warmaster!!!!!

:p  :D

[Spire]

I think I made Frank mad, he used three bleeped words in one post!  And American curse words no less.  This was not my intention, though I normally enjoy hearing the creative vulgarity of the British.  It's only second to the creativeness of the Irish.  Well, maybe third behind the Welsh.

 

Ok, that time I was trying to get his goat.  About the Welsh anyway. :D

 

Let's suffice to say, that I think we should follow the rules laid out in the core book and JoRs.  If a player goes out of his way to buy the extra mini parts, then spends the time and effort to modify the mini, I should, as a BL Demo Team member, take the time to make sure he did his math right.  It enhances the game experience, and allows players to express their creativity and individuality, and quite frankly, is the rules.  

 

As for "factory refits", the only one I am aware of that has an "official" and "published" set of rules is the "Black Lightning" Dictator.  This is supposed to be a special and hard won prize.  It's supposed to be kewl like that, an exception to the rules.  As for the others, they are fluff text.  They are all legal design modifications that can be made in both the Spirit and Letter of the CAV rules system.  So please don't try to pass off these things as "factory refits" and get out of paying the extra 20%-50% cost on the mods.  That's not cheese, it's outright cheating.

 

 

On swapping electronics, let's mod a Dictator's TL and ECM:

 

Adding a N2c Line Lock: 26 points x 1.5=39 points

 

Dropping the M-27 (21 points) from a Dictator

 

Net gain in points: 18 points

 

 

Adding a Magician System 21: 14 points x 1.5= 21 points

 

Dropping the Rach 18c (7 points) from a Dictator

 

Net gain in points: 14 points

 

 

New Dictator cost: 338 points

 

Dictator w/+1 WSO: 367 points

 

Difference: 29 points

 

Ergo, a Dictator with swapped electronics is cheaper than a Dictator with a WSO upgrade.

[Black Lightning 2]

Let's suffice to say, that I think we should follow the rules laid out in the core book and JoRs.

JoR Page 138 says:

"Custom designed CAVs, vehicles, or gunships may not be used in Official play unless expressly specified by the event host."

 

How's that for "is the rules?"

 

Not quite as derogatory as I'd like, but, it'll do.

[papabees]

I have to jump into the allow upgrades camp. It's part of the rules. Matt even said once he intended for weapon swaps to be used. And as for cheese, come on guys your paying 120-150% of the cost for the weapons. I usually don't upgrade because of the price. I'll turn your cheese to swiss (get it? full of holes. OK so that was bad) Now that said, it would be nice to have a place online to post a bunch of "official" varients already pointed out that you could just print a .pdf of. Maybe on the new CAVHQ. I'm beginning to think that doesn't exist though. Whenever we ask about it we get no response.  

[Black Lightning 2]

I have to jump into the allow upgrades camp. It's part of the rules.

As I noted above, while upgrades are part of the rules, they also come with the caveat that they are allowed ONLY if the event organizer says so.

 

As an event organizer, I won't allow it.  And, I do so, not because of my own personal preference, but, my players don't like it either...  I do it for them.

 

My players refuse to do upgrades, of any kind.  Everytime I even hint at asking, I get scolded by them.

 

There's just too many negative play experiences involved with customization...  From BTech, 40K, even from this very game (Man, I can build a real cheese-monster if you let me. ^_-).

 

But, then, that's just me.  I'm not telling Spire or anyone NOT to play with upgrades and custom rigs.  If you all want to deal with that, please, be my guest.

[papabees]

Yeah, I can see that if your players don't enjoy it. I just don't think cheese is a factor because they've built checks and balances into the system. The added cost for components more than makes up for any advantage gained.

[Leech]

Cheese is the last reason I'd disallow custom jobs. I disallow them because of creating an even playing field, because I don't think it's fair for some kid who played an intro the previous day and I then sold him a starting army expressly so he can play in the tournament and then throw him into a pit with the likes of myself, Stuart or anyone else who posts here regularly (and irregularly too :o)). It's unfair, and I've found it discourages people from playing CAV ever again. My job is to encourage, not discourage, so I'll do whatever I can to do that.... short of breaking the laws etc :o)

 

Spire, I agree on the cheating bit. If someone came to me and tried to blag a Black Knight as a factory refit like the BL Dictator, I'd probably thump him one for trying and buy him a coke for balls/guts. Until I see an official (as in blessed by Matt) Data Card for the Black Knight which doesn't include the extra 20% or 50% for weapon swaps, that kid's #### outta luck. The only exception to this policy is Frosch's Recluse CAV. As far as I'm concerned, that's a Factory Refit/whatever. I've the Data Card for it, and so long as someone hasn't tried to be shifty with it I'll allow it.

 

And Spire, I use 'h e double hockey sticks' and 'earthen barriers in water' in normal conversation all the time.... the only reason you'll ever see bleeped out stuff in my posts is cos of the dodgy censorship of these boards :o) But my post wasn't intended to come across as anything but passionate debate. Apologies if it did :o)

 

Ironmani, I'll let you know :o)

[Spire]

Let's suffice to say, that I think we should follow the rules laid out in the core book and JoRs.

JoR Page 138 says:

"Custom designed CAVs, vehicles, or gunships may not be used in Official play unless expressly specified by the event host."

 

How's that for "is the rules?"

 

Not quite as derogatory as I'd like, but, it'll do.

JoR1, p138

 

Official Tournament Play: You may only use published CAV, vehicle, and aircraft/gunship Data Cards.  By using parts from the published Systems & Weapons Modifications lists, you may alter the Modular Components and Weapons Systems and purchase movement, repair, armor, crew or other upgrades (See CAV main rulebook page 102-104). (my emphasis)

 

Right back at you, Mike! :p

 

Looks like you missed part of the rules on that page that really applies to what is being discussed.  I'm not going to completely type in p102-104 of the main rulebook for you, you are going to have to read that yourself.  Most of it has been revised (points cost for crew upgrades and such), but p104 is really the important one.  The first section is labeled SYSTEM & WEAPON MODIFICATIONS.  Start there, and read all the way through until the end of Infantry on that same page.

 

And for everyone's benefit, Mike's quote from the JoR1 refers to the CAV Point Design System.  It is contained in a paragraph clearly labeled Research and Development Guidelines.  You know, where you get to build your own units from scratch.  I agree completely that these "trash cans" should not be allowed in Tournament play.  But, these are not what is being discussed.

 

Mike, I think you are kind of like a cop who goes looking for evidence to fit his theory of the crime, he only sees and hears what he wants to.  I mean, really, you're grasping at straws there.  You can't rewrite the rulebook.  Well I guess you can, but then I think Reaper is going to have something to say about that.  You can't pick and choose individual sentences from the rules and apply them in any way so that they support your rather weak argument.  That is same kind of faulty logic that sparked another great rule debate about Defensive Fire.

 

So, Mike, what is the REAL reason you don't want to allow modified units, crew upgrades and such in your games?

[Jeneki]

Guys, it's not like there's a national ranking system with a CAV world championship every year.  Why does it matter if not eveyone runs tournaments the same way?

 

Part of running events is knowing your audiance.  Telling players how to play, without their input, will only destroy the game group (I have witnessed this before when games move to organized play with strict guidelines).  If the players are worried about cheese, throw in some mod and crew upgrade restrictions.  If they're powergaming scrubs, let them scratch build what they want, throw out the 50% modifier, and let them get it out of their system .  Go with what works.

[Froggy the Great]

I'm with Jeneki here.  I allow upgrades and weapon swaps, because they're official rules.  I allow scratch-builds that I've made, becuse I build weaknesses into the units I make.  I like it when people bring scratch-builds to my friendly games, though I do draw the line at tournaments.  Most of the time.  Actually, I do a lot of things that would have the stricter players with jets of steam from the ears.

 

An awful lot of this thread seems akin to GW nerfing all the ranged weapons in their games to enforce their own specialized vision of a "True British Style Of Gameplay", ie, running up and bashing on each other with sticks.  You (and I am specifically NOT mentioning names here) are trying to enforce your own vision of how the game is played, which may or may not be in line with how the game is best played.

 

A lot of this seems like you're trying to fix something that isn't broken, and taking this WAY too seriously.

[papabees]

Lets all just relax and take a deep breath........There, that's better.

[Leech]

Hehehehe, I agree some ppl are taking this topic way too seriously.

 

But, regardless of what it says in the JoR's, the Rulebook does state that it is up to the event organiser what they allow (in terms of customisations and the like). When I'm organising things, I use that sentence, plus my knowledge (observations and actual conversations) with my players to find out what's going on.

 

But, in Carnage (the UK equivalent of the Warmaster), everything goes so long as it's WYSIWYG. Because this time it's real, and chances are I'm one of the wolves you have just been thrown too.... but I'm also one being thrown to the wolves.