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I'd change that card and why


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that pricing just doesn't seem like it can be right--only a 40 point increase for +1 Mov and a vastly superior (roughly twice as powerful, with blaster on top) weapon?

But one that has had its Range cut by nearly 1/3.

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My thoughts are that all models are over-ranged for the average table size, but a point increase would help with the Rhino and Emporer. And yes Blaster is one of the reasons for the issue. The Centurion is 647 pts. The Ogre is 709. Both of these models get smoked by the Rhino. Compare the Centurion and Rhino.

 

At 60" = Rhino 2 @ +7 / 2 @ +2 Centurion 2 @ +5 / 2 @ +2

At 40" = Rhino 2 @ +9 / 2 @ +3 Centurion 2 @ +5 / 2 @ +3

At 20" = Rhino 2 @+11/ 2 @ +4 Centurion 2 @ +7 / 2 @ +4

 

At less than 36" inches or so the Rhino should dominate, but the Centurion is designed to be a long range fire platform. For equal points somewhere along the bell curve the Centurion should have an advantage but the current ranges require about a 12' table to see it.

 

Centurion does have linked though, but in general, I think the Rhino is still a better deal. from 40" inwards anyways - outside that, the Centurion may have the edge. But if you are playing super heavy terrain, you'd never see that, anyways.

 

Can I have my Paladin back? :upside:

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Compare the Centurion and Rhino.

 

At 60" = Rhino 2 @ +7 / 2 @ +2 Centurion 2 @ +5 / 2 @ +2

At 40" = Rhino 2 @ +9 / 2 @ +3 Centurion 2 @ +5 / 2 @ +3

At 20" = Rhino 2 @+11/ 2 @ +4 Centurion 2 @ +7 / 2 @ +4

 

At less than 36" inches or so the Rhino should dominate, but the Centurion is designed to be a long range fire platform. For equal points somewhere along the bell curve the Centurion should have an advantage but the current ranges require about a 12' table to see it.

You've neglected the fact that the Centurion has Linked, so here's a little predictability math for you. The chances that each model will inflict 1 and 2 points of damage against the following DV targets are:

 

At 60":

Rhino 2 DA @ +7

Centurion 2 DA @ +5 with Linked

DFM's are a wash.

 

1 pt of damage

DV ... Rhino ... Cent

11 .... 70% .... 75%

12 .... 60% .... 64%

13 .... 50% .... 51%

14 .... 40% .... 36%

 

2 pts of damage

DV ... Rhino ... Cent

11 .... 49% .... 56%

12 .... 36% .... 41%

13 .... 25% .... 26%

14 .... 16% .... 13%

 

 

Then put the two at the Centurion's sweet spot:

At 32":

Rhino 2 DA @ +9

Centurion 2 DA @ +7 with Linked

DFM's are a wash.

 

1 pt of damage

DV ... Rhino ... Cent

11 .... 90% .... 91%

12 .... 80% .... 84%

13 .... 70% .... 75%

14 .... 60% .... 64%

 

2 pts of damage

DV ... Rhino ... Cent

11 .... 81% .... 83%

12 .... 64% .... 71%

13 .... 49% .... 56%

14 .... 36% .... 41%

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That neglects Blaster - which has a critical on a 9 or 10. So the Rhino, with +7 or +9 has a 10% better chance of coring something with that shot. And even if the Centurion does crit, the rhino will always do better on th crit roll due to the higher RAV.

 

And the Centurion has a point lower DV.

 

So, better chance at criticals, 2 inches more movement, and a higher DV, combined with about the same hit percentage of the Centurion still make the Rhino a much better deal for the same cost.

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The Rhino is nasty, and it well should be. The problem is with costing I think. What makes this a real difficult problem to fix is that the costing formulas work fairly well. I'm not sure where the exact problem is but there seems to be a heavy leaning towards the 4th DA and Blaster. I think that most people don't have as much of a problem with the Rhino being a true killer, but with the < 700 point cost of it. Everyone needs a good, hard hitting but expensive Super heavy. The Ritts just happen to have the original.

 

I miss my Paladin too :unsure:

 

I really don't understand why the Mastadon is as expensive as it is. Yes it has a nice hard hitting attack and a long range indirect with a solid punch but it only has 1 of each. the lack of 2 - 3 additional attacks most other CAVs have make a massive difference in a showdown where the Mastadon is concerned.

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that pricing just doesn't seem like it can be right--only a 40 point increase for +1 Mov and a vastly superior (roughly twice as powerful, with blaster on top) weapon?

But one that has had its Range cut by nearly 1/3.

 

Yes, but the RAV increase is so high that it's only significant outside of the GRC's 60" long range band. If you're on an 8' table, yes it matters, otherwise--that range different is insignificant.

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The OEM Rhino obviously is not a problem for anyone since it is still MV7 RNG16, Ok, what about this, what if the OEM version was boosted up to 500 points and the Faction Rhino went from 655 to maybe 725, a big enough points change that using more than one in a typical game is very difficult. It therefore becomes much rarer, and as a result has less support available, making the overall impact of the Cav less.

Instead of complaining it is overpowered, think outside the box and rather than automatically pointing the blame at the range of the guns try playtesting OTHER scenarios. Increased points, or removing Blaster from the SA's, or (yeah, I am gonna harp on this) use some MORE terrain on the table.

My point is, that the Rhino is SUPPOSED to scare the bejesus out of its opponents and make them THINK about how to handle it.

 

Ever thought outside the box, and tried the game with less terrain? Not every fight is in a jungle. There are city fights, which have large firing lanes. And mountains / hills where things can get high and have pretty good LOS, also. Shards scenario - platform in the water - no terrain at all. I have played with gobs, and with more sparse. They both lend themselves to fun games.

 

To be fair I never said we play in a jungle, just LOS blocking terrain, HILLS are really good at that too. And yes, we do play a lot of city games, the only use I still have for all the Space Marine/Titan Legions buildings leftover from those games.

Even then we don't use a lot of long straight lanes, the guys I game with are (except me) former military and the idea of wide open corridors like that just doesn't go over well.

 

Honestly, if the Rhino was kicked to 725, it would be fine. Being 50 points cheaper than the Emperor, yet having an additional direct attack and Blaster makes it unbalanced, IMO. The Emperor is paying a premium for all but useless IFM. Yes, it has a higher RAV, but no Blaster to go along with it. And 1 point lower DV. The Rhino is an awesome buy compared to that - higher DV, more attacks, blaster, and 50 points cheaper.

 

The Rhino is supposed to scare people, but I cannot even shoot at the faction one - at any range, it will do more damage on return fire than anything I can shoot at it. Even shooting 3 or 4 CAV - if you are at range, the Rhino is still better then most things. 3 Dictators at 50 inches and EST still needs 9s against a Rhino in an ECM bubble. The Rhino, without EST on the defense, needs a 3 to wound a Dictator.

 

Close in to 20 inches. Same Scenario, the 3 Dictators with EST still need 7s. 6 main guns can still only reliably generate 1 wound off that. The Rhino autohits in return fire. At no point can 3 Dictators, which cost more points, ever be cost effective against a Rhino.

 

With a 16 inch range band, you bring a more favorable balance to the Dictators. Or, by increases it's cost to over 700 points, you can give the balance against the same three Dictators.

 

That sounds to me like the Faction Rhino needs a lower RAV AND Blaster or the Current RAV W/OUT Blaster.

I really get the feeling here that it is the combo of Rav/Blaster that causes the problem more than the range.

To be brutally honest I think the Ritt Rhino has too high a Rav, I hate like hell to advocate dropping a stat on ANY model, but, even though I get an inordinant amount of pleasure out of using one as the occasional "warprize" in my force, I think to avoid the argument over range we have been having, changing the Rav should be seriously considered.

 

Okay here is a suggestion, try the Ritt Rhino with Rav4 instead of 6 and Blaster, basically the OEM version with 20" range,

THEN try it with Rav6 and NO Blaster and see how that affects the balance of the model. Try both versions at an even 700pts and then adjust up or down if you think necessary.

At the Same time, try this one, change the OEM to MV8, keep everything else except Blaster and give the guns a 20" range, I think that would make 500-520pts a good fit for the model.

This way, perhaps Blaster could be a Faction only SA, the Rhino is the only model with it (off the top of my head, left my cards out in my game building), so the OEM could lose it and get the extra range and still be slower than the Faction model and be a balanced Super in the OEM category.

 

Another question, is the Piercing SA too high?

I mean I love my T-hawks Piercing/5 but then the PBGs are only Rav2 and don't have Blaster, yet it is the same cost as the Faction Rhino, while still being slower.

 

Try these suggestions and see what happens, I will try to set up a game this weekend and do the same.

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Okay here is a suggestion, try the Ritt Rhino with Rav4 instead of 6 and Blaster, basically the OEM version with 20" range,

THEN try it with Rav6 and NO Blaster and see how that affects the balance of the model. Try both versions at an even 700pts and then adjust up or down if you think necessary.

At the Same time, try this one, change the OEM to MV8, keep everything else except Blaster and give the guns a 20" range, I think that would make 500-520pts a good fit for the model.

This way, perhaps Blaster could be a Faction only SA, the Rhino is the only model with it (off the top of my head, left my cards out in my game building), so the OEM could lose it and get the extra range and still be slower than the Faction model and be a balanced Super in the OEM category.

 

Another question, is the Piercing SA too high?

I mean I love my T-hawks Piercing/5 but then the PBGs are only Rav2 and don't have Blaster, yet it is the same cost as the Faction Rhino, while still being slower.

 

Try these suggestions and see what happens, I will try to set up a game this weekend and do the same.

 

 

I have to say I love this idea. I think that you're right that there is a bit too much of a disparity between the Ritt and OEM models. I'll give these different versions a try and let you know what my results are and maybe we can get the Rhino straightened out.

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Re: Blaster only for faction Rhino...Maybe it's just me...but it seems a bit unfair to give Ritterlich, who already have one of the most powerful doctrines in the game, another faction-specific goody. I mean, they already have all the Blaster models except for the OEM Rhino, is it really necessary to accentuate that further?

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Honestly how often do you guys see Blaster come into effect? I see crit rolls of 10 all the time but rarely do i ever see a 9 roll on a hit. Are you guys seeing the same trend i do or are you seeing those 9 and 10 rolls?

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Honestly how often do you guys see Blaster come into effect? I see crit rolls of 10 all the time but rarely do i ever see a 9 roll on a hit. Are you guys seeing the same trend i do or are you seeing those 9 and 10 rolls?

 

9 or 10 is a 2 in 10, or 1 in 5, or 20% chance of a crit. 3 Rhinos (seen frequently here in Dayton) will get a crit every turn with those odds. And still blow stuff up even at 40 inches.

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Honestly how often do you guys see Blaster come into effect? I see crit rolls of 10 all the time but rarely do i ever see a 9 roll on a hit. Are you guys seeing the same trend i do or are you seeing those 9 and 10 rolls?

 

9 or 10 is a 2 in 10, or 1 in 5, or 20% chance of a crit. 3 Rhinos (seen frequently here in Dayton) will get a crit every turn with those odds. And still blow stuff up even at 40 inches.

 

Then the obvious answer is to kick the points up.

How many people field 3 Emperors or Thunderbirds at one time?

 

(I still think the T-bird should be faster and/or cheaper, but then I am a stubborn dude)

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Honestly how often do you guys see Blaster come into effect? I see crit rolls of 10 all the time but rarely do i ever see a 9 roll on a hit. Are you guys seeing the same trend i do or are you seeing those 9 and 10 rolls?

 

9 or 10 is a 2 in 10, or 1 in 5, or 20% chance of a crit. 3 Rhinos (seen frequently here in Dayton) will get a crit every turn with those odds. And still blow stuff up even at 40 inches.

 

Then the obvious answer is to kick the points up.

How many people field 3 Emperors or Thunderbirds at one time?

 

(I still think the T-bird should be faster and/or cheaper, but then I am a stubborn dude)

 

I've seen three Ogres. But they lost.

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Honestly how often do you guys see Blaster come into effect? I see crit rolls of 10 all the time but rarely do i ever see a 9 roll on a hit. Are you guys seeing the same trend i do or are you seeing those 9 and 10 rolls?

 

9 or 10 is a 2 in 10, or 1 in 5, or 20% chance of a crit. 3 Rhinos (seen frequently here in Dayton) will get a crit every turn with those odds. And still blow stuff up even at 40 inches.

 

Then the obvious answer is to kick the points up.

How many people field 3 Emperors or Thunderbirds at one time?

 

(I still think the T-bird should be faster and/or cheaper, but then I am a stubborn dude)

 

I've seen three Ogres. But they lost.

 

Yeah, Ogres just don't cut it IMO, not enough punch even w/3 DA's and their armor just isn't up to it.

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