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I've flipped through Pathfinder, and it seems to do some good things with the d20 system, but the fundamental flaws of low level play (pc's made of glass) and high level (so much work to run it's not fun) are still present. Played at 4th-12th level I'm sure it's just as fun as 3.5 was, but 4e seems to keep the "sweet spot" of challenge vs ability the whole way through.

 

What you see as "flaws" I see as "features." To whit: low-level PCs made of glass: why is this neccessarily a flaw? One of my favorite aspects of 3e was low-level play BECAUSE I couldn't just stand there and take it. In our group (the Blackrazors), we came up with our own set of Battle Tactics. The best is "Fireball at our feet; we can take it, they can't" which shows a bit of ridiculousness that D&D can have, but some may see that sort of thing as a feature.

 

And so on...

 

Damon :zombie:

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All good points, Damon. And I notice your views have soften up from awhile ago, thinking back to some threads on TMP. I was totally against 3e when it came out. I thought 2nd ed was perfect (with my dozens of house rules). Then I started reading it and fell in love with it. Now I've got the same feeling for 4e. It's easier and is more self consistent and compact. Same as 3e was compared to 2e.

 

The things about 4e that might appeal to a new player also appeal to me as someone with very limited gaming time.

 

And I need to say that if someone wanted to start up a Pathfinder or 3.5 game, I'd play in it in a heartbeat. I'm just through DM'ing it.

 

lemme tell you, my PC (14th Level Celestial Bloodline/Evoker Sorceress) makes me giddy with joy every time she tosses off a Disintegrate for 100+ points of damage. She's totally full of win and I can't wait to play her in the final encounter.
That's great, all my players in my current 3.5 game feel the same way. They'll feel the same when they roll a crit with their new 4e characters. They just won't have to take 5 minutes figuring out all their bonuses and rolling dice, then forgetting some other modifiers and adding some more...
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All good points, Damon. And I notice your views have soften up from awhile ago, thinking back to some threads on TMP.

 

I don't know if my views have softened at all. I still have no desire whatsoever to ever play 4e, but the big difference is the recognition that I'm not the target audience anymore, and that in the long run if people want to play 4e, so be it. With Pathfinder, I have a game that I want to play, that caters to my wants, and that D&D really isn't that important to me anymore. Once you let go of the sense of nostalgia, it puts things in the proper perspective.

 

Damon.

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As I near forty in January, I don't mind the goings on with 4.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, etc. I'll leave the baggy pants and the hippety-hop, and whatnot to the kids.

 

I'm excited about the Pathfinder models way more than the books.

 

 

 

/agree

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As a player of 3e since release day back in 2000, 4e since release day in 2008, and 2e since I was 9 years old, PLUS a player of Alternity, GURPS, Hero system, World of Darkness etc. I have a hard time understanding why it cannot simply be treated as a new game. All the gamers I know have a dozen or so different systems, worlds, rulesets etc. on their shelves side by side, including AD&D and D&D 3.x and 4.x.

 

Why can't we stop bashing a different game and appreciate the pretty miniatures that the artwork and action inspire????

 

And while we're at it - let's give a listen to the first Fantasy RPG podcast on the D20 radio network that is 100% system-free - it works for fans of AD&D, 3.x, 4.o, WHFRP, GURPS, and everything! It's here: http://www.cityofdoors.info

 

The people that make it are really enthusiastic and sexy :poke:

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Wow! I never thought posting a comment to a more or less dormant thread would kick over such a hornets nest of renewed controversy! ::o:

 

I really just wanted to let the powers that be know that the Reaper/Paizo alliance was already bearing fruit, and that I had spent some money on a Paizo publication only becuase the Pathfinder Miniatures news here at Reaper caused me to give their products a look. Personally, I never played D&D 3.5 or 4.0 (my D&D experience is limited to the old TSR AD&D game), so I'm not looking at Pathfinder in comparision to either, just as a game on its own, and I was impressed with what I saw. Nice production values, clear writing and what appear at first glance to be a fairly solid rules set.

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Wow! I never thought posting a comment to a more or less dormant thread would kick over such a hornets nest of renewed controversy! ::o:

 

I really just wanted to let the powers that be know that the Reaper/Paizo alliance was already bearing fruit, and that I had spent some money on a Paizo publication only becuase the Pathfinder Miniatures news here at Reaper caused me to give their products a look. Personally, I never played D&D 3.5 or 4.0 (my D&D experience is limited to the old TSR AD&D game), so I'm not looking at Pathfinder in comparision to either, just as a game on its own, and I was impressed with what I saw. Nice production values, clear writing and what appear at first glance to be a fairly solid rules set.

Nevertheless, you still need to listen to my podcast. Everyone needs to, or I don't get to eat supper.

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As a player of 3e since release day back in 2000, 4e since release day in 2008, and 2e since I was 9 years old, PLUS a player of Alternity, GURPS, Hero system, World of Darkness etc. I have a hard time understanding why it cannot simply be treated as a new game. All the gamers I know have a dozen or so different systems, worlds, rulesets etc. on their shelves side by side, including AD&D and D&D 3.x and 4.x.

 

Why can't we stop bashing a different game and appreciate the pretty miniatures that the artwork and action inspire????

Personally, I have no problem appreciating the oodles of systems out there for what they are. If you asked me generally, I would say they all have their own particular pros and cons. As someone mentioned earlier, giving up the nostalgic aspect could put the whole argument in a more proper perspective.

 

Alas, I think it cannot be helped that people who grew up with a thing from the time they were young, feel a sort of ownership for that thing. And when a corporate interest makes a unilateral decision to change that beloved thing beyond recognition, it of course is going to ruffle feathers. If they had called their new system anything other than D&D, I would have happily let it sit on the shelf, perused it once in awhile (I still would not have bought it because it's just not my cup of tea), and that would have been that.

 

I think there are going to be arguments about this on some level probably until WoTC admits they messed up (never happen), or until those of us with ownership in the history of the game are all gone. I don't think it can be helped.

 

Getting back on thread, I think Pathfinder helps that a bit. Obviously, many of us wanted a more recognizable system, or it wouldn't be doing as well as it is. WoTC may have missed an opportunity here in how they marketed 4ed versus just doing away with 3.5. I don't know. But I do agree with those here who think PF is what should naturally have come next, and that's probably where I am headed.

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But I do agree with those here who think PF is what should naturally have come next, and that's probably where I am headed.

Imagine what people would say if WOTC had released Pathfinder instead of 4E: "This is just D&D 3.75! They expect us to pay money for just an upgrade? I'm sticking with my existing books!"

 

Ishil

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