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Warwick

Darkspawn Daisy Chain vs Mercs Iron Will

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More importantly, anyone have any ideas of countering the ability to bring an entire army to bear, most with the ability to still move and attack for better positioning, on a single card flip.

 

Just remember, a Model can summon up to three models as a single Specialty Action, and Gated Darkspawn can perform 2 actions once Summoned.

 

Just 3 models can produce 9 Models that are capable of moving and attacking (or summoning even more).

 

 

Spreading your army out at the beginning of deployment helps, but your best troops will still get mauled. You can race a fast moving model across the board with Ranger to try and eliminate all the models capable of Summoning, but only a stupid Darkspawn player would start the game with just a single demon on the board. Building up tight defensive formations to protect some of the weaker models, but with an entire enemy army on your side of the board you then lose the ability to manuver.

Edited by Qwyksilver

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Actually, looking at your army build, it appears that a troop is missing (the above is only 4 troops and only adds up to 922 points), hence some of the confusion. I'm guessing the final troop was a Band of 3 Imps and the Musician.

 

~v

 

:blush:

 

You're right. I apologize about that major confusion on my part!! You are correct good sir! :upside:

 

The way I am reading this (and assuming Vince is correct on the missing troop), Wildbill is starting the game fielding 4 troops - 1 Imp Musician in each. He summons most/all of the rest of his army into 1 of those troops, but he would still have 4 troops (and pick up a 5th when the Marilith is summoned).

 

You are also correct good sir! :lol:

 

Wild Bill :blues:

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DarkspawnDaisyChain001.jpg

 

This is the table layout. I like ruined towns. Very charming. I deployed on the left, WB on the right.

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain002.jpg

 

We deployed by the book in 24x12 spaces. Normally we use the entire length of the board, a house rule we will reinstate this week. 24x12 is just too small. Samurai are on the left. Grundor and his unit are mixed in with four Minotaurs (played by Lupines for this fight).

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain003.jpg

 

WB deploys. Four Demon Imps, four unit, four Musicians, all behind buildings.

I move some Minotaurs up on my card. Now here comes the Darkspawn!

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain005.jpg

 

In the above image we can see a Demon Imp moving 9 inches and then Summoning another Demon Imp.

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain006.jpg

 

Here we see Demon Imp #2 having ended his first move and getting ready to Summon a boatload of Demons.

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain013.jpg

 

Here is the result, the end of card flip two. I've got a bad case of demon, bleeding, burning. It ain't pretty.

 

DarkspawnDaisyChain014.jpg

 

And my right flank is only being held together by two models that made their Tough saves. And a Crossbowman. They are doomed. WB luckily dropped a lot of points into that area instead of trampling my samurai. He didn't need half that much force. My Tough rolls saved me from total carnage in Turn Two.

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Qwyksilver, this was my answer to that question. I had everything going for me in this game. I knew demons were coming. I knew how WB plays. I had days to prepare. I can proxy any army I want. I deployed to thwart the charge. And I got luckier than I deserve on dice and cards. I still lost. I had to bunch up to prevent a slaughter and that just handed him a perfect Fireball.

 

Yes, I think this is vastly more powerful than a fast Cav army. That army doesn't pop the entire army into base contact with 2 actions left.

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The big difference between the last version of Gate, and this one, was that Models couldn't perform two actions in the past, so it allowed you to march some of your army up, and then poof, bring everyone out, which was fine. You still had to march parts of your army up there, and if you happened to get it set up properly, some of them could attack on that first turn, but most would just have to just move into positions to attack when the next turn was available.

 

It allowed the opponent to actually deploy their army, and have the possibility to react, because yeah, you could unload everyone on the spot, but then you had to wait to unload the carnage. And it was only non-leader models that gained summoned (demon), so you had to field your leaders at the start of the game. Now, it turns everything into a big mega muddle with one troop with multiple leaders, etc. So you can have one guy performing Rally actions and another doing other things. What determines which model is the actual leader of the troop?

 

You used to have to field a minimum troop per leader, and then you could leave all the extra models to break troop capacity when you marched up there. Now, you just have to field a single model.

 

Now, you not only don't have that option, but it all happens on the first card of the Darkspawn player's turn, and then poof, every point in the army is in your face minus the 3-4 models it takes to chain move/summon across the board. That last one summons 3 models which in turn summons 9 models that each have 2 actions to perform. If you are bringing more models than that, you just use a couple of those 9 models to bring the rest of the crew, since each one can summon forth another 3 models and perform another action.

Edited by Qwyksilver

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Has anyone tried using models with Disable or Provoke on the larger beasties with any success? Or flood the initiative deck with a horde army that forces the demons to waste actions to take out the fodder?

 

I've only played one game so far, and don't foresee playing against Darkspawn, but those came to me as possible foils.

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I think Reptus would probably do fairly well, and Onyx Legion as well. Dwarves could if you focus on Maidens/Warriors. Any army focused on defensive models should do alright because a defensive army doesn't really need to maneuver - they just need to rank up and keep the enemy from getting too many support bonuses. Maybe Crusaders too, with their great number of healing models. What doesn't die on turn one can be healed up to continue the fight.

 

Are we reacting to the number of models that die here, or the speed at which they die? I'm still not too concerned about this battle report because in the end it was 0 models to Rauthuros who had some damage on him. That's essentially how a Warlord battle ought to end. Typically, though, turn one is spent maneuvering and may see some pot shots fired, and turn two sees the charge. Turns three and four see most models eating dirt, and if you're playing it all the way out turn five sees the armies cut down to a battered handful on either side, with turn six often seeing the last models dying and a couple wounded models left.

 

Perhaps the summoning rush made it difficult for the Mercs to coordinate a counter attack on Rauthuros which is why he was so healthy in the end? But isn't that part of the overall strategy of the game? Protecting your heavy hitters until nothing can stand in their way, then letting them loose to finish off the fight?

 

I guess I'm just afraid that we're getting ourselves worked up over this and some hasty errata will be written up. That would be bad for the game I think. As far as real play experience that is being referenced in this discussion (spread over a few threads), we've got two games. One of them was in a niche scenario, and the other one was pretty close to a normal finish.

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I doubt Gus is planning any kind of errata without a lot more real world testing. I've seen it twice and it's brutal. I'm sure I'll see it again.

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I doubt Gus is planning any kind of errata without a lot more real world testing. I've seen it twice and it's brutal. I'm sure I'll see it again.

I'm not planning any errata for things like this. I always anticipated players finding stuff like this (how could they not with 400 datacards and 10 factions?)

 

I figure it works itself out because players will simply stop playing the 'cheese' lists after a few games when it stops being fun. Once a group sees that X is an 'auto-win', I expect either the player will stop using it, or they won't be able to find an opponent willing to play against. ::):

 

Regardless, I see this thread as a positive "hey everyone, check out this cheese! Lets try to beat it!" type thing than a "hey gus, you need to fix this" type thing. So lets keep it going!

 

I plan to try this list out locally against an archer-heavy elf army, where the elves deploy along the back edge, hidden behind rows of cats. Once the Darkspawn get there, the cats should give the elves 1-2 turns of heavy shooting (especially with 3 Caerwynns shooting!).

 

Or what about a reptus list with tons of flying Gan-Hor? Those flying swift attacks should be able to pick off all those stray demons with ease.

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I was thinking of deploying most of my army against the very back edge of the table in a series of pretty tight wedges.

Justicars and Knights with a Ironspine, with my other models backed up tight. Fortunately there is only one flying spell caster that is a demon, and he is unique, so fireball is not too much of a concern, although it would hurt, but only once. The other demon caster has an innate spell Rot, which is more annoyance than anything.

 

I just would not likely move my army until after the Daisy Chain was performed, unless I brought some Cavalry along. Those I would run like hell out of the deployment in groups split pretty far apart so he couldn't chase em down.

 

Uriel summoning a pack of Celestial Lions and Doom Kitty or Hound would be rather fun too.

 

Healers will help, but it is now Healer is a spell Innate (Lay on Hands), and Hospitaliers can only cast it 3 times before their usefulness is over.

 

Of course, looking at the book, Crusaders can do a pretty nasty version of the Daisy Chain too with the Justice Doctrine.

 

Isarah can move 20, then Summon Uriel as a Free Action, who then flies 20 more inches, and then summons 3 Doom Kitties who can move 8 + 2 for charge and then start eating. Of course, that costs a lot more, but can cover 48 inches which is the entire length of the standard 4'x4' board.

 

That's 685 points well spent on watching your opponent soil themself. You could do it more cost effectively with Celestial Lions, but having to face down 3 Doom Kitties, with Uriel watching their back... Ouch!

 

I might have to start fielding Isarah just to screw with people.

Edited by Qwyksilver

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I don't think just pointing out the few lists that will put up a good fight is what people want. Sure, a flying Gan-Hor list. But how many people field such armies? Are you going to bring that army to a tournament or to game night at the club? That list can put up a fight against Darkspawn, but can they fight Reptus, Elves, or Crusaders? I expect to see this trick in the hands of the "win at all costs" crowd. Or Wildbill once a blue moon. You won't get the day-long chance to tweak any army like I did. You'll show up, go to your table, and suddenly face off against the Daisy Chain. Here's how I'm going to face it.

You won't get to leave your deployment zone, so you must set up in a fighting configuration. Keep all four sides of your big guns covered. Don't think about facing the Daisy Chain with big guns exposed. The enemy has a bigger gun, trust me. As much as it will drive you crazy, you can't take the fight to him. It takes torture to drag this from me, but consider turtling up. Put your back to terrain or the table edge. Shooters with Ranked or Indirect Fire will help you so protect them. If your card comes first, DO NOT send out Solos that will get swarmed and eaten. Do not send any troop out so far that it can be isolated or rendered useless. Make no mistake, the fighting is going to happen in your deployment zone. Once the first Darkspawn card is done and you've stopped weeping, try to take out those lone Imps that give him extra init cards. Kill his big guns, because his minor demons don't pack that much punch. Break away from combat if you can (bring Standards) so you dictate the flow of battle. Don't give him easy Defensive Strikes on your guys. About Rauthuros...I don't know. Good luck. If he's smart, you'll never have the chance to swarm that beast. Natural tens are your friend. He doesn't have Damage Reduction and can't afford to hang back all game Regenerating. Granted he can kill anything he touches, but you might get lucky.

And be prepared for him to throw you a curve ball and simply deploy as normal. Then all your crazy deployments just make you look, well, crazy. Then you get to spend an extra turn unraveling your troops.

Stay sane out there.

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I have to agree with a solid defensive line with your softies packed in the back for protection and just sitting and waiting until they do something is the best bet. Which just sucks the fun out of a game.

 

Or if you have a massive horde army and you just fill the front couple ranks with fodder.

 

You know, War Dogs are short. You could use her majesties Artillery (Ian) with some ICA to do the same thing as Gus suggested for the Elves.

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I feel like I've missed something:

 

Is not a legal troop a leader and a minimum number of soldiers? In deployment, can a soldier be fielded without a leader, and ignoring the minimum number of soldiers in the troop?

 

I'm sure that the chain can be built, but, except for solitaires, my read is that a legal minimum of each troop MUST be fielded in the deployment phase.

 

Example:Ashakia, 6 Demon Imps, 130 points. 1 initiative card. They can summon Rathurous and everyone else.

 

To be extreme, if it is not a written requirement to field legal troops during the pre-game, may troops be held "off-board" and brought in as reserves later? I hate asking this, but this seems to be the way to defeat this tactic, and seems no more in violation of rules and custom than "the dasiy chain".

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So if I read the Summon SA correctly, you could only summon 1 leader in the chain, correct? You ingnore troop limits, but not leadership rules, right? Would you also ignore Elite slot limits as well? Pts limits for leaders v soldiers would still apply.

 

Also, if the whole army is chained, couldn't that invalidate all of the other troops as they might no longer meet troop minimums with the Daisy troop beyond capacity. This could leave the company an 'illegal list' could it not?

 

Cheers,

Brian

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