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Finally, Vamps vs Crusaders


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Some more food for thought:

 

The expensive options for soldiers in any army are not necessarily going to carry the day for you. Prior to 2.0, any player would agree that the Shieldmaidens were one of the best soldier choices. They were practically a shoe-in for any Dwarf list. The prevailing logic was "why ever take Warriors when you can take Shieldmaidens? They were just that good.

 

2.0 rolls around and I posited in the Dwarf faction thread that the Shieldmaidens were no longer the gold standard for quality Dwarf, and that in fact the Warrior, for 3/5ths the cost, was the new standard of what it meant to be a quality Dwarf model. The maiden has similar defensive capabilities, slightly better offensive capabilities, and has an extra damage track. Shieldmaidens are still better than Warriors, but for the cost I'll take a Warrior unless I feel I'm really going to need some extra staying power.

 

This all translates fairly well over to Crusaders. Dwarves and Crusaders are both largely defensively oriented armies (along with Reptus and some Overlords). The comparison between Dwarf Warriors and Shieldmaidens is very much true of Justicars and Templar Warriors. Justicars have some extra fanciness, but they're essnetially longer-lived Templars. Perhaps trying out a larger troop of Templars is in order. You might find that it's actually easier to keep a larger pack of Templar Warriors alive than it is a smaller group of Justicars - the enemy can only focus on so many models at once.

 

Another thought:

Without seeing your army composition I'm not sure if this is something you're doing already, but I would suggest bringing along some Templar Ironspines and/or Lord Ironraven. Reach is very important for a defensive force. One of the big problems with a defensive army is that you can only take so much of a beating. Eventually you're going to need to sucker punch the other army to reduce its ability to continue trying your defenses. Reach is one way to do that - they charge in, you may lose some soldiers, hopefully they lose a few - then you shore up your line, bring in your Reach models behind that line, and use the Reach models to gang up on several enemy models. Focus fire, say with two front line soldiers and a single Ironspine in the back all attacking one enemy, instead of each soldier in the front line attacking a seperate target. This way you make it more likely to kill (or at least force a tough roll) an enemy, and you take less defensive strikes. I kindof blended two tricks into one there...

 

Last thought:

Reven are a completely different animal than Crusaders. They are brutally offensive but are very nearly entirely lacking defensively. You WILL inflict heinous casualties on the enemy army with a Reven fighting company, but you'll also lose your own models in droves while doing it. I'm not trying to persuade you towards one army or the other, just want to make sure you know what you're getting if you switch out to Reven.

 

Overall I think that the advice given above is solid - having a good mage to soften the enemy up, and diversifying your soldier choices to keep your numbers up are good things to keep in mind.

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There is a trap in comparing two datacards side-by-side unless those models fill exactly the same role and have almost identical stat lines. Ogre Warriors and Justicars are very much not the same. Justicars have a better degradation on the DV, endure ranged attacks better, and are rarely denied their attacks due to Dis checks. Ogres are faster, hit harder, and cost almost 15% more per model than Justicars. That's Apples and Oranges. Crimson Knights vs. Justicars? Crimson Knights are better is practically every way... and cost nearly 40% more because of it. That's Apples and... Star Fruit, or something.

 

I completely agree. I was just mentioning these as an apples to oranges comparison. Justicars are supposed to be our best foot soldier and they don't seem to stack up against other factions soldiers.

 

Your best comparison is the Shield Maidens and the Justicars. Yup, Shieldmaidens will make their Tough check about twice as often as Justicars... but that is still only 1 in 10 times more than the Justicars. Yup, they have Rage - which gives them a +1 bonus for 1 swing in activations when they Charge an opponent (an average Shield Maiden will get to use this SA once per battle). Realize that this means a Shield Maiden will score an average of .1 points of damage more per game than a Justicar (+1 bonus for one attack = +10% chance to hit = .1 points of damage statistically). Yup, they have Smite (Reven); if you are lucky enough to be facing Reven, that's great for a +1 MAV on every attack. Of course, there are 9 other Core Factions, and at least 7 more Factions yet to come. So unless you have a local Reven player you always face, your pure random chance (not accounting for sales data, which shows that some factions are clearly more popular than others) of facing Reven and getting to use that SA is 1 in 17, or about 6%. Yup, Shield Maidens have a MD that is 1 point better across the board. However, Justicars have a better DV on Track 2 (DV is used far more often than MD in the game), and a better Dis on Track 3. And Shield Maidens are 3 points more expensive per model.

 

Ah now were getting into Army cohesion. Think Duke Gerard with Justicars and rage. Thats a +2 MAV with two guys on a charge. Thats signifigant. Also, your point of better degrading stat line. There is not that much of a difference. They do go to DV10 on Track 1, but their MD stays higher. All the guys I play with know that Justicars are my toughest Std base size soldier. I also use Hospitaliers. But who in their right mind is going to spread out the damage between several models and not try to kill Crusaders troops off outright? We will just heal them up. The better DT over the long run point is kind of moot. I think it all lays down with your opponent. Do they want to ping you to death or kill your models. I know Warwick, Wild Bill, Mark, and myself try to eliminate the model so that the partially dead guy doesn't come back to bite you in the bud.... Its all in who and how you play.

 

You seem to have disdain for DV 11 soldiers, yet there are only 5 soldier datacards with a better DV (all of them DV 12 on first track), and all but one of them is a cavalry model (Crimson Knights are the lone exception) and all of them are at least 61 points, a minimum of 14 points more expensive than the Justicars. You seem to have an equal disdain for MAV 5 soldiers, yet there are only 7 soldier cards with better MAVs (all MAV 6). Note that there is a Crusader model (Lion's Lancer) that meets both of those criteria.

 

This is farthest from the truth. I have played against Mercs, Dwarves, Elves, Nefsokar, Darkspawn, Razig, and Necro. Every one of them seem to have something very cool SA combo that just clicks right into place. My point I was attempting to make is that other than deflect which we can have on every guy via doctrine, and lots of healing what do the FOOT soldiers have going for them. If I really wanted to play a cav army I would have picked nefsokar- no offense but I like their cav better. Yes, we do have the largest (by far) amount of Swift Attack and Fast Attack models but only doing 1 point per model won't kill anything. And that's not a very good appropriation of points in having your very expensive models never earning their points back. Example - Pegasus Riders. 100 pt.s of whoopbutt in a can. But as soon as you land them to get their full attacks and stop Swift Attacking back into the air they die. Love the models I made for em, love their stats but until you sacrifice them to the meat grinder they might kill 2-3 models a game.

 

I suspect that there is nothing that anyone can say that is going to change your mind, so perhaps this post was a moot point. It is a shame that you feel the Crusaders aren't worth it.

 

~v

 

Oh no please do. If someone could please sit down and explain what each soldier's role would be I would be eternally grateful. I think I have been expecting too much out of somethings and severely under estimating others. Its just no one here plays Crusaders so its not like I have a lot of advice. I just look at all the cool stuff that their armies do.... and never having won a game doesn't help either. And its not that I don't ask Warwick's and Wild Bill's advice on stuff I do all the time. Just that Crusaders is not an army that they play.

 

So with that said...

 

"Obi Wan Ken-Shakandra, your my only hope"...Except I'm a dude talkin to a dude...And I have a goatee.....but I DO have the silk white dress thing...got it while I was stationed in Afghanistan...I'll put it on if it will help.....

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From my point of view, Templar Ironspine is always useful. Besides the Reach, they also have Pike which allows defensive first strike. This is the first soldier type I choose to use. Next comes Iron Crown Archers because it is the only soldier type that shots. Since I like to have cavalry, having the light lancers at 30 point each is not bad. The Crusaders do not have any low cost troops except for war dogs, I prefer Templar Knights or Unforgiven to fill in rest of the rank as needed.

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Wow, thanks a ton for that Mr. Ripley. I appreciate the time and effort you put into thinking all that through even though you are a stuntie fan. That really shows a willingness to help.

 

Edit: Oh, and thank you kindly for the complament Humansquish. I try my best to always give the reasons for saying what I say and thinkng why I think. And patience is a virtue....or the sign of a former NCO. :B):

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my "Justicars, enough said..." comment was ment to support greenie, Justicars are not worth there points, i have been playing crusaders for a while and won my last 4-5 game with anywhere from 400-900 points left. Not once did i take a justicar.

Any of the templars are a good choice, depending what you use them for. Most of my wins have been from spell/cavalry combination. I only use Uriel and the guardian beast when i play a resurrection list, other wise you end up losing a lot of points to quick. I have found that the hound of judgement and the lion are much better choices. Lady Devona and Isara are pretty much in every list i make, the both have proven there worth time and time again in any situation.

 

Greenie few tactics for you to try:

 

Mother superior with 3 hospializers defended by ironspines. and use uriel and the gardian beast to rush out and do as much damage as possible then rez them when they die. Id fill the rest in with archers and/or light cavalry

 

Duke with a lot of lion lancers. devona(whirlwind on std size bases to stun then rush in the lancers) Halberad to bless from the back, and Isarah to heal when/if needed. also keep in mind there blessed and get support when only 2 are attacking. this will give you 27 attacks at mav 8, and if either or both first strikes hit per target and there still alive there is a good chance you alos lowered there DV. And since you used whirlwind instead of chain lightning all stunned models your attacking do not get defensive strikes after.

EDIT: dont forget to take a standard, you will want to disengage and change targets to get your first strike again

 

If you really want to play mass infantry go with the templar knights in Lady Jehanne troop, with Isarah and halberad. when the enemy is with in charge range, use burst of speed to move and bless to raise mav, then get your plus 2 focus(since your move was a free action) This will make your all your knights 2 attacks at 7. (80% chance to hit an average DV with 20 attacks, so you should do about 16 damage) (this should be a little over 500 points of your army leaving you the other half to experiment with other troops. archers or light cavalry would be a good choice.

 

you can also use bless and Jehannes plus 2 focus to get your archers to 1 at rav 6.

 

-Sin

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I don't think you can use burst of speed to get into b2b. You need to use a charge action to get into b2b and burst of speed allows you to make a free move action. That would require you to then use a charge action to finish getting in to b2b eliminating your chance to focus. I could be wrong however, it happens now and again. :unsure:

 

Joshua

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I don't think you can use burst of speed to get into b2b. You need to use a charge action to get into b2b and burst of speed allows you to make a free move action. That would require you to then use a charge action to finish getting in to b2b eliminating your chance to focus. I could be wrong however, it happens now and again. :unsure:

 

Joshua

This is correct. Burst of Speed only gives a Move Action. Move Action specifically says it cannot be used to come into B2B contact. ::):

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I don't think you can use burst of speed to get into b2b. You need to use a charge action to get into b2b and burst of speed allows you to make a free move action. That would require you to then use a charge action to finish getting in to b2b eliminating your chance to focus. I could be wrong however, it happens now and again. :unsure:

 

Joshua

This is correct. Burst of Speed only gives a Move Action. Move Action specifically says it cannot be used to come into B2B contact. ::):

 

That doesn't seem right. If they get a free action to move and can move 5", they cant move and stand next to someone 1" away. Seems like one of the things we should of changed before the book came out. <_<

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