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You could have 1000 points on the board or 100,000 points, if a caster has the points to throw 3 fireballs with a 3" AOE. They can do just that throw 3 at 3.

True, but that wasn't his point. What he is talking about is that unless you change the size of the table you are playing on, 1K of models is not the same as having 2K of models. With 2K worth of points on the same 4'x4' battlefield, models are inevitably going to be packed closer together. That means that AOE spells (especially, but other attack forms as well, such as Blowthrough, Roar, etc.) will be able to hit more targets because of model density on the table vs. a 1K game, where the troops are more likely (not always, depending on army and tactics) to be further spread out.

 

Personally, I think the game does scale well in general, but there is a bit of a breakdown as lists get exceptionally small, where at a couple hundred points, a number of smaller models could get pretty quickly destroyed by a single large model. That, however, is more a reflection of statistical probabilities than an issue of actual game balance.

 

~v

Edited by Shakandara
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Now, ss far as playing with unpainted/partially painted/etc.

 

Tough.

 

I'll play with a salt shaker and a bunch of dice if I have to.

 

It's a miniature game. Not a must be fully painted to play game. Last I checked there were no rules on having to field an aesthetically pleasing army.

 

If you don't like playing against nekkid pewter or partially painted pewter, you can find another game. Painting isn't a priority. I'd love to have the chance to sit and paint up my entire army. Getting the time to even find a chance to play is a rarity. I am going to use what I can.

 

What's sad is the fact that you have to disparage people playing because it doesn't meet your paint standards.

 

The reason for the liberal proxy rule is to encourage more people playing. However, when players start to take advantages of the rule to field a "cheesy" army, such as having 70 mostly unpainted models in a 1000 point game, or to change the composition of their army whenever they see fitted, that is power gaming rather than having fun. Painting is an important aspect of miniature game. It is the miniatures that attract people to buy the game, not simply the mechanics. GW WH is not a very good game. The reason why it attracts people to play is because the beautifully painted minis and the rich background. How do people feel when they open a copy of the White Dwarf and found that most of the minis on the pictue are unpainted. I bet it has the same effect for any new and undecided players who browse this website.

 

If you are so keen of finding people to play games, why bother to buy the miniatures in the first place. Make a small photo of the minis and paste it on a corresponding base and there you go. Since you are not playing in an official tournament, you can use whatever proxy you want. I personally guarantee that you will find more people to play a game with you that way.

 

I don't mind playing with people who can only field a partially painted army as soon as it is their intention to finish painting up the rest of the minis. Unfortunately, it often is not the case.

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You could have 1000 points on the board or 100,000 points, if a caster has the points to throw 3 fireballs with a 3" AOE. They can do just that throw 3 at 3.

True, but that wasn't his point. What he is talking about is that unless you change the size of the table you are playing on, 1K of models is not the same as having 2K of models. With 2K worth of points on the same 4'x4' battlefield, models are inevitably going to be packed closer together. That means that AOE spells (especially, but other attack forms as well, such as Blowthrough, Roar, etc.) will be able to hit more targets because of model density on the table vs. a 1K game, where the troops are more likely (not always, depending on army and tactics) to be further spread out.

 

Personally, I think the game does scale well in general, but there is a bit of a breakdown as lists get exceptionally small, where at a couple hundred points, a number of smaller models could get pretty quickly destroyed by a single large model. That, however, is more a reflection of statistical probabilities than an issue of actual game balance.

 

~v

 

 

Exactly, when you have twice the number of models on the board on average the aoe spells will hit twice as many since there are twice the number of models packed into the same space, making them more valuable. While chain lightning still only hits 5 models no matter how many points you play.

And I have warlord described by Gus to many new players as a "skirmish based strategy game". That may not be how you see it but that's what it was made to be and i think its at the skirmish level.

 

-Sin

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While chain lightning still only hits 5 models no matter how many points you play.

Though, it all fairness, the 2" jump that is part of Chain Lightning's becomes even easier to achieve at 2K than 1K, so to a lesser extent it even applies in that case as well. Yes, you are limited by 5 maximum targets, but there are many times when I choose not to use Chain Lightning just because my opponent isn't bunched closely enough for my tastes to maximize the effect of the spell. In a larger game, I'd be more likely to use Chain Lightning as often as possible in the target-rich environment. ::):

 

And this is totally thread-jacking, so I'll knock off the discussion of game size from this battle report now. :lol:

 

~v

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Warlord may have been tested at and mostly costed at the 1,000 point level but it can be played at any points. It's important to remember though, that what performs poorly at one points range may perform entirely differently in another. THe smaller the points match the more powerful big units become. At 1500 points the Hill giant is a nuissance. At 500 points he's a game breaker. At 1000 points he's very dangerous and commands respect and large volumes of hopefully well guided firepower as well as some cunning tactics. Just using the Hill Giant as an example.

 

I think it's important for people to play at all points levels, not just 1000 points. What may seem as a sweet spot at 1500 for some is far too clunky for others. Personally, I love a good swift 500 point game. At 500 points you can't afford to make ANY mistakes in your efforts to execute your tactics. One miscast spell or out of position figure can cause your whole force to collapse like a house of cards in a typhoon. You just simply don't have the resources to recover. In a 1500 point match it's far more forgiving. This battle report states that clearly. Several errors were made on the dwarf's side, they intentionally handicapped their heavy hitters (HIll Giant and Stone Spirit), and still it was a very close game. Why? Because until the first 500 points die you're effectively just slamming bodies into bodies. You ahve too many soldiers and too little real estate. I bet the moment 500 points of soldiers on each side was dead the Reven vs Dwarf game took on a completely different feel. And furthermore, I bet that the moment only 500 points was left on each side the game took on a crystal clear level of clarity and focus to eek every last bit of offensive and defensive capability out of what was left.

 

All point ranges work, except 2000. . . that's just craziness!! No, 2k works, but at that point you start to see a breakdown in a lot of the mechanics through sheer probability distortion. Play at the size you like, but remember for playtesting, 1000 points is the "sweet spot". I like hearing about the masses of soldiers colliding in a 1500 point game as much as anything else but take the battle reports for what they are, a report on a battle. And this one was an entertaining and good one to be sure. ::D:

 

 

Joshua

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I almost healed the Hill Giant just to cheat to show Jim he should never trust an orc :lol:

 

I think the most frustrating for both of us was the Varaug and Thorgrim battle, we both kept making tough checks and "killed" each other with attacks and defensive strikes, and neither wanted to waste SP to heal ourselves since it wasn't worth it til one stayed dead.

 

And they never stayed dead!

 

DR/2 on even the little elementals was annoying too, beacuse Jim would attack a single model, knowing even if I rolled dbl 10's on my defensive strikes, nothing would happen. And I did that. More than once! :grr:

Edited by Qwyksilver
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The elementals are hot, no doubt about it. I suffer from fits when deciding when to surface them, though. Too early and even DR/2 can't save a DV 10 model. Too late and I may as well have not brought it along. I didn't even surface one of my elementals - the other elemental smooshed two orcs and made its points back (more or less) and of course there was still plenty of fight left on both sides when time was called so I'm sure it would have performed admirably.

 

Maybe if I had surfaced the other one on the far side of the table it could have helped put a stomping on the orcs helping Varaug and would have let Logrim's troop have some freedom to do something more... That's hindsight though, and who knows how Qwyk would have responded if that elemental had been surfaced.

 

They really are very much awesome on their own activation, and potentially less so on your opponent's activation. On your activation you can hit who you want and limit defensive strikes such that DR will soak some or all of the potential damage coming back. Bludgeon also raises its DV10 to an effective DV 12 (technically not but you know what I'm talking about) against most models. And it's got 3 attacks at MAV 6 which is good enough to smoosh most things, too!

 

 

 

But you know what, one thing I noticed during both games and that just struck me now is that perhaps I was playing too conservatively with the solos. Perhaps a residual shyness left over from 1st edition? Big solos used to buy the farm in such a hurry if you weren't super careful with them. But my Griffon and both earth elementals performed quite well, as did the bear riders. Maybe you can get away with being a little more aggressive with them these days... to a point of course, rushing them into the front ranks of an enemy army before any of those enemies has activated is never a good idea..

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unless you have a healer standing behind it.. then it is really fun to fly in with that griffon, running it up and let them rumble and tearing things apart, and then just as the enemy thinks he has finally sent enough troops at it to take it down you toss a Flesh to Stone spell on it.. and send it somewhere else.

 

As for the Varaug verses King fight.. obviously we could tell you a couple of tactics to use related (like the fact that first strike negates tough, or King Thorgram's WA is that Varaug's tough roll should have been at -2)... But, as it were, with you two using it more as a learning experience than true battle tactics, sounds like you guys still had a heck of a game.

 

Oh, and thanks Josh for posting that about game sizes.. As one of the developers, it has been driving me nuts to see the posts about the game not beign playable above 1000 points. As you said, although there are some differences that must be accounted for in terms of number of models per capita in larger games, we most certainly did not create this game to only be played at a specific point count. Oh, and I challenge you to a 3000 point rumble the next game night...

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jason, i think you might be the exception in our group. You seem to like the big battles but most only want to play at 1000. i think 500 point games are almost always one sided but are good fro learning the game, and you lose a lot of the feel of the game if you go up to 1500. At that point its no longer a skirmish.

 

And Josh just likes to argue so he will say the opposite of what the last person said.

"All point ranges work, except 2000. . . that's just craziness!! No, 2k works...."

as you can see if he pauses to long while typing he starts to argue with him self! :lol:

 

-Sin

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I did take the penalties to tough. We were both just rolling insanely well for that battle. Plus I got to use Tenacious when he was hitting me back after clobbering him so the odds helped.

 

Actually Tough and Discipline checks were made WAY above statistical averages.

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Yeah, -2 does diddly squat when he rolls 10's and 9's.

 

I was thinking of ways for a Dwarven model to dish out as much pain as Varaug can.. it's possible, although improbable. Varaug is capable of 9 damage if equipped with the Bonesplitter - 3 hits for six damage, plus three cleaves for an additional three damage = 9 damage. And since his MAT is so ridiculous it is very likely that he'll put out all 9 damage. He did it to me more than once in those games.

 

Thorgram puts out 4 on his turn (2 mighty attacks) and 6 on your turn (he gets another #MA on defensive strikes if you use the Defenders doctrine). 4 is nothing to sneeze at, and six will force a tough role (baned, at that) for pretty much everything in the game. But when you absolutely, definitely, MUST have over-the-top damage output, try this on for size:

 

Durgam Deepmug with Hammer of the Mountain God - 4 attacks with Mighty! 8 damage. On your turn using Defenders doctrine that's 10 damage. In-stinking-sane!! Only problem is that he's got MAT 4, so he isn't nearly as likely to land all of those hits as, say, Thorgram or Varaug.

 

You could also put the Hammer of the Mountain God on Logan Battlefury. He's got 3 attacks (or 4 on defense) which basically gives him the same damage output potential as Varaug, which is of course very much respectable. MAT 5 to begin with isn't really spectacular, but by his last track he's sitting pretty on MAT 8 which will bust skulls and no doubt about it! Toss in Mithril Armor for a little DR loving to help him land on that sweet spot instead of buying the farm for good measure.

 

When it absolutely, necessarily, must be overkill, those models get the job done and then some!

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