Archers, what's the point

[vejlin]

In my experience, for direct damage dealing effect, archers are a better investment of points. Casters are however so much more versatile and can do many more things (and they pay points for thus versatility, which is why using them as archers doesn't give you a very good return on your points investment).

[psyberwolfe1]

Now if I read Stealth correctly it says you cannot target a model with a ranged attack if it is more than 12" away. In this case it doesn't say if that ranged attack is an arrow or a magical spell. It just says ranged attack which means you couldn't target it with your spell any easier than you could with an archer.

This is incorrect. Models performing ranged attacks do so using RAV via the Shoot action (p.32). Spells are conducted using CP via the Spellcast action (p.34). Stealth does not impact spellcasting, much in the same way Deflect does not.

 

~v

 

I believe you might actually be incorrect Shak, respectfully. Both Spellcast and Shoot actions are ranged attacks, unless they happen in melee or are specified otherwise. Nothing in the rules states that a Spellcast action used for attack is not a ranged attack. It even specifically states that the targets must be within range of the attack. Step 1 in how to resolve an Attack Spell(p.35) says;

 

"1) Declare each spellcasting model's spells: The controlling side declares all spells and all targets of those spells. All measeurements for range and AoE are also made." That seems to clearly state that casting the spell is an attack that targets something at range, hence ranged attack, therefore stealth applies.

 

Spellcast is merely a seperate form of ranged attack from shooting a bow or what have you, but it is still a ranged attack. Stealth models are infact immune to being the target of attack spells outside of 12 inches and are also immune to the AoE effects of spells like fireball much like a rogue in D&D with the evasion feat since you have to target them with an attack vs their MD if it's outside of the 12". Even spells that don't require LoS like Mind Blast are inelligible outside of 12" on a stealth model.

 

Joshua

 

You can google "Dr. Cox wrong wrong wrong" and insert that here. Shakandara is correct. Ranged attacks are made at RAV. Ranged Spell casting pretends to be a ranged attack when rules wise it is not.

 

Knarfy is making some astute points because I brought two Thusia's and the Witch Queen plus Keradaan and 6 archers. The archers never made up their points cost while the three casters kept him pinned down and made up their points nicely. I'll post up a slap dash Bat Rep later.

[Gus Landt]

Shakandara is correct. Stealth is meant specifically for ranged attacks from Shoot actions. Pages 32-33 (Shoot action) use the term "ranged attacks" all over the place, and Stealth describes interaction with Defensive Shots.

 

As for the topic, I can't imaging going into battle without BOTH a mage and a couple archers. Most mages focus on AoE spells, where archers focus on single targets.

 

Gus

 

Now if I read Stealth correctly it says you cannot target a model with a ranged attack if it is more than 12" away. In this case it doesn't say if that ranged attack is an arrow or a magical spell. It just says ranged attack which means you couldn't target it with your spell any easier than you could with an archer.

This is incorrect. Models performing ranged attacks do so using RAV via the Shoot action (p.32). Spells are conducted using CP via the Spellcast action (p.34). Stealth does not impact spellcasting, much in the same way Deflect does not.

 

~v

 

 

Now if I read Stealth correctly it says you cannot target a model with a ranged attack if it is more than 12" away. In this case it doesn't say if that ranged attack is an arrow or a magical spell. It just says ranged attack which means you couldn't target it with your spell any easier than you could with an archer.

This is incorrect. Models performing ranged attacks do so using RAV via the Shoot action (p.32). Spells are conducted using CP via the Spellcast action (p.34). Stealth does not impact spellcasting, much in the same way Deflect does not.

 

~v

 

I believe you might actually be incorrect Shak, respectfully. Both Spellcast and Shoot actions are ranged attacks, unless they happen in melee or are specified otherwise. Nothing in the rules states that a Spellcast action used for attack is not a ranged attack. It even specifically states that the targets must be within range of the attack. Step 1 in how to resolve an Attack Spell(p.35) says;

 

"1) Declare each spellcasting model's spells: The controlling side declares all spells and all targets of those spells. All measeurements for range and AoE are also made." That seems to clearly state that casting the spell is an attack that targets something at range, hence ranged attack, therefore stealth applies.

 

Spellcast is merely a seperate form of ranged attack from shooting a bow or what have you, but it is still a ranged attack. Stealth models are infact immune to being the target of attack spells outside of 12 inches and are also immune to the AoE effects of spells like fireball much like a rogue in D&D with the evasion feat since you have to target them with an attack vs their MD if it's outside of the 12". Even spells that don't require LoS like Mind Blast are inelligible outside of 12" on a stealth model.

 

Joshua

[Stubbdog]

Only thing that people missed in their comparences is that Bolt is only a 9 inch range spell, not 18. Yes, zero point spell that can be cast overand over, but only 9 inch range.

[Warwick]

Mages vs Archers? Apples and oranges, people. That means my Gargoyles will make fruit out of all of them.

[ViciousPanzer]

Huh. . . so spells aren't ranged attacks? That's interesting to say the least. S'pose I"ll take my plate of humble pie and go enjoy it quietly in the corner, nom nom nom. lol

 

Although the resolution steps for magic do indicate it is a ranged attack and although it makes no mention of defensive magic I wager that is because defensive casting simply does not exist anymore. I could see how someone would draw the conclusion that an attack spell constituted a ranged attack, particularly myself.

 

Joshua

[Shakandara]

I know Gus has already given official clarification on this, but I wanted to add the support text. The things that really help define what a ranged attack is come from the Shoot action page. 2nd sentance, first paragraph,

 

"The Shoot action covers all sorts of ranged attacks."

 

And then restriction number 1 that follows that,

 

"The model must be capable of making ranged attacks. Its data card muct list values for RAV and #RA"

 

Note that those two sentences from #1 are not sperate restrictions; the second sentance clarifies the first. Thus, ranged attacks = having an RAV & #RA, and are resolved via the Shoot action. Since spells do not use RAV & #RA, and are resolved using the Spellcast action, they are not ranged attacks (even though range may be involved). At no point in the Spellcast action does it ever use the words "ranged attack", even when discussing measuring for range of a spell.

 

~v

[jdripley]

In my experience, for direct damage dealing effect, archers are a better investment of points. Casters are however so much more versatile and can do many more things (and they pay points for thus versatility, which is why using them as archers doesn't give you a very good return on your points investment).

^^That.

 

Both can shoot junk and mess them up. Mages can also apply negative model states, etc, which enhance the ability of the rest of your army to kill something. Granted an archer knocking a DT off of an enemy model probably enhances your army's ability to deal with it also, but you get what I mean. That's why I say that losing an archer stinks, but losing Thuusia is a bigger blow.

[psyberwolfe1]

Only thing that people missed in their comparences is that Bolt is only a 9 inch range spell, not 18. Yes, zero point spell that can be cast overand over, but only 9 inch range.

 

By the time it comes for shooting Bolt your arcane caster has blown their 18" range spells and will typically be within 9". At 9" Bolt is amazingly more effective than archers.

[Outkast Samurai]

I'm glad we have official clarification on this one but I think that this is one that will need put in the clarification topic because I do believe that with some of the wording it can be a bit decieving as to the effect for stealth. It was the fact that spells had a range and that they targeted models that lead me to think that stealth would wrk against them. I've never actually needed to cast a spell at a stealth model before so it never really came up in game play. Thanks.

[Gus Landt]

I'm glad we have official clarification on this one but I think that this is one that will need put in the clarification topic because I do believe that with some of the wording it can be a bit decieving as to the effect for stealth. It was the fact that spells had a range and that they targeted models that lead me to think that stealth would wrk against them. I've never actually needed to cast a spell at a stealth model before so it never really came up in game play. Thanks.

Great point. Added.

[kyaakone]

Great point. Added.

 

Note that this addition and the Martyr clarification are both missing line breaks.

 

jus' sayin'

[Gus Landt]

Great point. Added.

 

Note that this addition and the Martyr clarification are both missing line breaks.

 

jus' sayin'

Whoops! Thank you!