d&d 4e

[wyrmgear]

I can say, unequivocally, I have no idea.

 

I played D&D back in the 1st and 2nd edition days and every attempt at returning has left me disheartened (of course, I never felt it was a particularly great game even then- though the groups I played the games with were a blast). I always found Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, Champions, Rifts, WHFRPG, and so on much more interesting (these are obviously from different time periods).

 

However- I purchased the 3.5 edition with the intent of trying it out again. I found reading the ingredients on a shampoo bottle more invigorating, and encyclopedias less tedious. When 4e came out I bought that too, thumbed through it and haven't gotten back to it yet.

 

I grabbed Pathfinder and liked some of what I've read, but to be fair I am not overly familiar with 3.5 and couldn't pull the differences if tasked to do so. It just seems a vague rehash of D&D 3.5 (but hey, like I said, I don't have enough info to to tell the difference).

 

I like RPGs, I buy lots of books because I love the settings and plan to one day play them all (like that would happen...). I don't have any problems learning new systems (actually I love too, keeps boredom down)and feel that the GM and players (takes two to tango, folks) make or break a game. I have never lost sleep over a game or ranted about a change to one. Quite frankly they are games, a means of entertainment and one of many ways to spend quality time with good friends - they are not my life.

 

 

So, having verbosely spewed a circling rant (yeah, contradicts my statement above), I shall be on my way.

[highpriestrsw2]

I really have no idea why.

I wasn't a big fan of 4E when it first came out because of how at will, encounter and daily powers are implemented and the movement powers and options of some classes and monsters felt very board game like to me.

I've since had a revelation that made me LOVE the game.

I have been playing Dragon Age Origins a lot lately and I'm really looking forward to getting the tabletop RPG based on it. I was looking through my starter set for 4E because someone on another forum had mentioned that they'd like to model their 4E game around Dragon Age. I(being a big 4E skeptic at the time) was convinced that it would never work.

After reading the rules a little bit I noticed that something was familiar about the 4E rules but couldn't figure out exactly what it was. While playing DA later that night I upgraded my character with cleave or a similar talent and realized soon after that the talents that are controlled with a button press on DA work just like "At Will" powers in 4E and that some of the talents that work behind the scenes in the game sometimes function like "Encounter Powers". I've yet to find the analogue to "Daily Powers" yet but the similarities between the two games has been enough to win me over. I've busied myself gathering as much 4E goodness as possible.

I only wish that the other gamers at the local club actually listened to my comparison between the two and less on how rigid they believe 4E is in letting you customize your characters (which is not true) because they all play Dragon Age and love it but scoff at the idea of playing 4E and lately have taken to hassling me about my sudden acceptance of the system.

[Spike]

Having played 4e a bit I'm growing to like it, but I would not say I prefer it over older versions of D&D. That would be kind of like comparing apples to oranges. You can like one without hating the other. It's a matter of taste.

 

The two things I suspect put me and lots of other folks off 4e at the start was the (for lack of better words) feeling that TSR had pulled a Microsoft stunt and made all the stuff we just bought obsolete. It was kind of the final twist of the knife following the upgrade to 3.5

 

But what put me off and to a degree still does is the jargon and the general "l33t" feel that I get when listening to 4e fans discussing the game. It's the same sort of thing that really irks me when some video-game player refers to my painted miniature as a "toon". Thank goodness i'm playing in a game where people just don't talk and act like that.

 

Really it all boils down to how people are playing..and I think lots of others have said the same thing here. If I had ever played 2nd or 3rd ed with the wankers from The Gamers, I'd probably have been put off there too.

[Dr.Bedlam]

The two things I suspect put me and lots of other folks off 4e at the start was the (for lack of better words) feeling that TSR had pulled a Microsoft stunt and made all the stuff we just bought obsolete.

 

I regret to say that TSR no longer exists. Dungeons and Dragons is now a trademark and product owned and produced by Hasbro Toys (or, specifically, Wizards of the Coast, a gaming outfit which is owned and operated by Hasbro). I am not sure what bearing this may have on whether or not you are right. It's not in my nature to trust large corporations.

[Randalll]

Well, I started playing in 1.0, played 2 and a bit of 3.5, and now play 4.0. They are not the same game, and are only similar to each other.

 

What I like about 4.0

[kristof65]

While playing DA later that night I upgraded my character with cleave or a similar talent and realized soon after that the talents that are controlled with a button press on DA work just like "At Will" powers in 4E and that some of the talents that work behind the scenes in the game sometimes function like "Encounter Powers". I've yet to find the analogue to "Daily Powers" yet but the similarities between the two games has been enough to win me over.

From my understanding based on all the hoopla surrounding 4e's announcement, this was a design intent from the beginning - that 4e was supposed to feel more like a video game. Apparently the thinking was that it would appeal better to the younger generation who is used to video games.

 

In your particular case, it looks like they succeeded. In my case, however, it kind of puts me off the game, as I've never been much of a video gamer. What I'm really curious about, though, is did it work for WotC overall? Did they wind up with more people like you, or more like me? I doubt WotC will release figures - but I will make a "prediction" of sorts - if we see a completely new edition prior to Jun 2012, then I'd say we can call 4e a failure, since 4 years is the shortest time between D&D editions so far(unless you count 3 and 3.5 as one edition, then it's 8 years).

[Bruunwald]

Since the arguments seem so old hat at this point, I try to keep my contributions to the ubiquitous 4th Ed discussions to a minimum. However, something happened this weekend that may be of some interest here. Take it as you will.

 

I was in my favorite FLGS when their WoTC rep showed up. The owner gave him the grand tour of the place. It being small, and myself being a trusted regular, I was right there for a great deal of the conversation.

 

He got what seemed to be bad news to him: that 4th is in a three-way first-place tie there for best-selling RPG. Pathfinder and another I have since forgotten the name of were the other two. You could cut the silence with a knife. Then the store's manager told him that Pathfinder might be pulling ahead in recent days, but that 4th definitely has hit a plateau. The owner of the store also passed on complaints about 4th from players that had been holding games in the store. Strangely, the complaints seemed to be many of the same from 3.5 that Wizards (and some 4th fans) has boasted are now gone. His reaction to that was to brush it off with a nod and then change the subject.

 

The mood was weird. He came in sort of moody in the first place, which you probably can't blame him for, as I am sure he spends much of his time on a plane. But he asked for more info on other companies' sales and asked to see things which were frankly not his business and probably confidential (I actually am a Buyer by profession and there were definitely things he wanted to see that I would not be comfortable showing him). He wasn't a mean guy, but he seemed slightly desperate, like a guy who suspects his job is on the line for reasons that are not his fault. There was some other weirdness, but I don't want to go on forever about it.

 

Personally, from watching and listening, I got the impression that WoTC thinks of everybody else as a rival. Which is too bad. Really, the industry is too niche to be thinking that way. I understand that each company needs to make money, but Wizards might be too caught up in the corporate structure of Hasbro to understand anymore that our hobby does not work - or survive - that way.

 

Anybody who uses his Armorcast terrains in both his Warmachine or Warlord games and his Pathfinder RPGs, along with his GF9 measuring devices and his Crystal Caste dice, before clearing it all away to play Magic with his buddies can attest to the interconnectedness of our shared hobbies. Companies like Paizo, Reaper, and even Privateer Press seem to understand their symbiosis and that they belong to a community. Even though they all want to sell their stuff, there's room made for the other guy. Sitting in on the conversation with the WoTC rep made me feel like there is this paranoid king out there somewhere, looking to root out and do away with anybody who might challenge his authority. It would be too bad to succeed at that, since it seems obvious that bringing down other companies hurts the entire industry, including Wizards' own little corner of it.

 

Anyway, there's some gossip for you, so take it as you will. Impressions are harder to explain than facts and definitely harder to defend. But those are my impressions anyway.

[kristof65]

Personally, from watching and listening, I got the impression that WoTC thinks of everybody else as a rival.

This honestly doesn't surprise me, as it's the impression I've gotten just from observing what they've done over the years.

 

WotC had the right idea with the d20 OGL, and the hobby took off because of it. But you could see the mentality changing there as time went on - it seemed pretty obvious to me that the corporate mentality of Hasbro was taking over WotC, and Hasbro was unhappy with some of the previous decisions that WotC had made, because frankly, the OGL benefited the hobby as a whole more than it did WotC.

 

I remarked when 4e was announced that it appeared WotC was headed down the same path GW had taken - that is very much the mentality that GW has as well - FREX, GW refers to everything they do as the "GW Hobby". WotC hasn't been quite that arrogant - yet.

[EntilZha]

I tried to play 4.0 once, it was like trying to learn a completely new game system. The Wotzis took everything that had come before, which was built on previous versions all the way back to the original box set from the 70's, and chucked it in the bin. It plays like a table top MMO, and seems to have been designed to pull people away from World of War-Crack back to the gaming table. I felt like I was pushing buttons on a controller whenever I used a "power". Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against MMO's in general; I play Guild Wars (thanks to my girlfriend ) semi-regularly. But I digress. I don't like the new version at all, and even if I had any interest, I don't feel like learning to play D&D all over again.

 

I like what I've seen of Pathfinder so far, and would play it as an alternative to 3.5, since it is quite similar to 3.5.

 

Thanks to 4.0 though, I've come to a sad realization. I've always wanted to go to GenCon someday, and I know I'd want to play D&D. But since RPGA sanctions D&D events at conventions, it would all be 4.0. There's no point to going now for me.

[ReaperWolf]

Thanks to 4.0 though, I've come to a sad realization. I've always wanted to go to GenCon someday, and I know I'd want to play D&D. But since RPGA sanctions D&D events at conventions, it would all be 4.0. There's no point to going now for me.

 

Balderdash!!

 

You go to Gen Con and you'll find every edition of D&D running alongside LONG out of print games like Bushido, Villains and Vigilantes, you name it. True the RPGA has become the mouthpiece for Hasbro's D&D but there's nothing stopping you from having a rip-roaring time indulging your every gaming whim at GC 2010.

 

Buck up camper, there's plenty to do in Indy come August! :)

 

>>ReaperWolf

[Swanton]

I just started playing 4e last summer. It had been over 15 years since playing D&D. I have played multiple single-player RPG video games over the years, and really enjoy those. I never tried WoW because I didn't have the time and was afraid I would get "too" into it.

 

So, I must plead ignorance on 3rd edition. Reading through the 4e materials was interesting and I found a couple of groups to play with; so far, I have really enjoyed it.

 

I enjoy the combat encounters and the strategy of movement and powers. I have used the system as a player and a DM, and you really need to balance your resource management as your encounter and daily powers are crucial at times. As a DM, the encounters are fun and rather easy to put together if you download the online Monster Builder. The area of the system I'm still working on is the Skill Challenges. The more I experiement, the more I like the system and the tension that is created when some die rolls become vital to the survival of the party.

 

You can still role-play freely but 4e gives you a very good set of rules for combat and utilizing skills. If you are trying to play 4e without using the online character builder, then you are really doing yourself a disservice. It prints out everything you needs and makes the system less cumbersome.

 

I am DM'ing for two different groups over the weekend (in different campaign worlds), so I'll be busy using 4e during the next few days! The focus on minis and combat led me to the Reaper forums because I took up painting, so the system also has that benefit.

[EntilZha]

Balderdash!!

 

Whoa, ReaperWolf, language

 

You go to Gen Con and you'll find every edition of D&D running alongside LONG out of print games like Bushido, Villains and Vigilantes, you name it. True the RPGA has become the mouthpiece for Hasbro's D&D but there's nothing stopping you from having a rip-roaring time indulging your every gaming whim at GC 2010.

 

Buck up camper, there's plenty to do in Indy come August! :)

 

 

Thanks for restoring my faith in my dream. When I do go someday, it's good to know I'll have options.