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Feanor

Reptus army (of DOOM!)

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I assume it was because the people posting in this thread hadn't looked up and read the rule. I am just very confused at the confusion, as I had thought I'd written the SA clear enough. ::(:

 

Sometimes something is so wrong it doesn't even register that it actually means what it does. I don't think anyone ever caught in the first edition that Gonda was a Mob model but she was. The fact that an elite had mob didn't even register with anyone, because it broke fundamental mechanics of the game that elite slots were numbered. But, since SA's trump core mechanics Gonda was a legal mob model Would taking 10 Gondas to heal your giant be cheesy? yes, Was it legal? Yes. Was it a good mechanic or fair? No.

 

 

 

What did you think the "doesn't have the room to land" part meant? :unsure:

 

Not that they didn't need to meet b2b requirements. There is a rule where models on separate elevations can be in b2b that would apply here. Additionally, if the flyer is in striking distance then they are apparently on the same type elevation as the flying-non-flyer models with hover, which must be in base 2 base to melee. If you can get hit or hit someone, you are in b2b. As the game is there is no instance where melee can take place without being base to base, so it didn't even seem reasonable that it would be changed to implement a cheesy tactic. Being in B2B is a requirement for melee that is mentioned 4 or 5 times in the rules and within the SA itself. The idea of 6 or 8 or 12 dragons that are 7-8 feet tall all dropping in simultaneously in a 3' x 3' square unhindered and so fast that you can't even hit them is beyond cheesy.

 

I'm sure once players understand what can be done they will either house rule the flyers, refuse to play the rule or all play gaan hor, harpies, succubus or crypt bats exclusively if they think one of the "doom" lists are coming.

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I fail to see how adding such a unit (or allowing for the legal combination of special abilities) to the game adds any fun. It would certainly be odd if the game designer would have created the unit, acknowledged that they are unbalanced, but doesn't seem to see this as a problem. So I'm guessing Gus doesn't see them as unbalanced.

 

I am otherwise enamored with this game, so perhaps, as rgtriplec said, I will simply avoid the unit altogether.

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Ok, there are a few instances where normal B2B rules do not apply.

 

Trample. Models do not come into standard b2b for trample as it's fight action is actually a move action and not a charge, and only charges (or being summoned) can result in b2b contact. All melee SA's still apply though like frenzy and what not, but Nauseating and Fearsome do not apply since they are not melee SA's and the model doesn't enter b2b combat. Trampling models do not make Fearsome or Nauseating checks when trampling those sorts of models. Sorta makes sense as the trampler soon expects whatever is so frightening or stinky to be so much goo under it's foot momentarily.

 

Reach. A reach model doesn't actually come into b2b with a model when it uses the reach attack and is also therefore not subject to non melee SA's. Furthermore Reach breaks from the rule that 3 or more models on one enemy equals support. Reach models only grant support during activations in which they are attacking a model.

 

Swift Attack is one of these exceptions when coupled with Flyer. It doesn't require a model to make standard b2b contact but leaves them still susceptible to SA"s like Fearsome, Nauseating, and Frenzy as it is stated that they do make b2b contact. By the way, one of my favorite tactics when getting swift attacked is to use frenzy if a model has it to come back with 2 attacks against the swift attack model instead of just one.

 

All of these exceptions are noted in the SA's description (granted Trample's is the most vague). You're right though, it seems super wrong and super broken and it kinda is. However! Just because this list is extremely effective in a stand up kill em all battle that doesn't mean it's any good in objective battles or scenarios. You lose the tactical strength of the flyers in several situations, namely take and hold.

 

We tested several of the flyers with swift attack (like Succubi and Gaan-Hor) and found that though powerful there were definitely foils built into the system to handle them. In Warlord there are basically 3 means of attack; Melee, Magic, and Missile. Melee tends to beat Missiles, Magic beats Melee, and Missiles pincushion Magic. . usually. Gaan-Hor are susceptible to both Magic and Missiles. Should a flight of these overgrown iguanas be spotted it is highly recommended to point all arrows and spells at them and be ready to get poked by the survivors. ::D:

 

First Strike Swift Attack Flyers. Are they cheesy? Oh yeah, super. . like 7-11 nachos after a night of drinking (who hasn't drowned 7-11 nachos before?). Is it broken? Maybe? But what's more broken is the person who would field this army time and again knowing that noone will enjoy playing against them. I'll gladly face any force against an opponent I know is there to have fun and flex their tactical muscles. But I do not enjoy playing against and will not play with people who feel like their manhood is on the line when they play. Likely some gaming groups will have people like that and they'll institute a house rule about Gaan-Hor or something to compensate, but largely I think the novelty of a quick win will wear off as opponents become scarcer to play. Or! Hopefully, people will develope new lists and tactics that stand a 50/50 shot against them! That would be awesome. :upside:

 

Joshua

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I honestly do not believe a Warlord list can be built that Joshua cannot beat on his second (and most subsequent) attempt.

 

Playing against the GaanHor list showcases player skill better than any other list I know of, as you need to beat it with your skill, not your list or the dice. But it can definitely be beat, and be beat regularly. Joshua has proven that with every 'unbeatable' list anyone has come up with (he is one of the most skilled Warlord players I have ever met).

 

Greatest thing about Joshua? He'll show up every Friday with some awesome unbeatable list, and crush his opponent. If his opponent whines about it, he immediately trades armies with that player and proceeds to crush his unbeatable list with his opponents army. Every army can be beat when you got them mad skillz. ::D:

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Ok ok ok lets not get to hung up on how amazing short Josh is. I can barley fit that dudes head in my car some times! ^_^

 

But seriously I to think Josh is probably Pound for Pound the best warlord player in the area and defiantly the coolest thing about him is his ability to take his defeats like a man, learn from them and come back stronger.

 

But with that said there can be no doubt that the GaanHor list, when even played just ok, is currently the most Broken list in Warlord. I have never seen the GaanHor list beat and have never heard of it being beat (locally) at the 1,000 level other than the first time Josh played me with it and I zapped his clumped up GaanHor with 4, 3" Aoe's at rav 7 a round (thanks Dark Spawn). After that battle we both agreed that with a slight change in tactics he would stomp me every time. The only chance some one would have against this list is if they specifically made a list just to counter this list, and still this list wins 10 out of 10 times against any stock or "tournament lvl" list.

 

Now I don't say any of this to start any wars or come off sounding negative about anything but because I love Warlord more than any table top game ever and I respect it enough to keep it real. Can the GaanHor list be beat? Maybe. Can it be beat when used by a top level player? Probably not.

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I believe personally it is the most powerful list in existence at the 1k point level . . but I do believe there are lists that can beat it with fair consistency. LIkely the Gaan Hor list will hold the higher percentage of wins but that's because it relies on a simpler tactic and is innately deceptive as to how to beat it.

 

THe best way to defeat the Gaan Hor is to not fight them. What? That's right, don't fight them. he average list isn't set up to be as powerful as a faction can be. Most lists are setup to be representative of a theme or a specific tactic, some of those are outright brutal. But all of the most powerful lists I've encountered bring magic and/or ranged chicanery to the battlefield. So, to that end, the defeat of the Gaan Hor list involves not fighting them through SA's like Flame Attack, Stunned, winglock, First Strike, etc. The second and more important aspect to victory is to hit the Reptus where it hurts the most. One or two lost Gaan Hor is useless. Killing the 200+ point Broodmaster is a major lost. At the 1k point level there are other high priced targets to destroy. Is it easy? Hell no. Broodmaster is one of the more powerful units in existence and it will take about double it's points to bring it down, expect heavy losses in return. Mobility, as in burrowing. Burrowed models can go far to denying magical support to this list and thus enable the killing of the Broodmaster more easily.

 

I would like to take on this list with a few I've concocted and see how they end up. These lists are power lists I've been toying with for awhile. Seems the gauntlet is tossed and I gladly take it up to receive or dole out whatever fate is ordained. ::):

 

Joshua

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Ok, there are a few instances where normal B2B rules do not apply.

 

Trample. Models do not come into standard b2b for trample as it's fight action is actually a move action and not a charge, and only charges (or being summoned) can result in b2b contact. All melee SA's still apply though like frenzy and what not, but Nauseating and Fearsome do not apply since they are not melee SA's and the model doesn't enter b2b combat. Trampling models do not make Fearsome or Nauseating checks when trampling those sorts of models. Sorta makes sense as the trampler soon expects whatever is so frightening or stinky to be so much goo under it's foot momentarily.

 

Actually to Trample you must be in valid b2b with the starting and subsequent attacks.

 

 

Reach. A reach model doesn't actually come into b2b with a model when it uses the reach attack and is also therefore not subject to non melee SA's. Furthermore Reach breaks from the rule that 3 or more models on one enemy equals support. Reach models only grant support during activations in which they are attacking a model.

 

Reach models must be in b2b with a model friendly that is in b2b with an enemy. The principal still holds and the SA specifies as such.

 

 

Swift Attack is one of these exceptions when coupled with Flyer. It doesn't require a model to make standard b2b contact but leaves them still susceptible to SA"s like Fearsome, Nauseating, and Frenzy as it is stated that they do make b2b contact. By the way, one of my favorite tactics when getting swift attacked is to use frenzy if a model has it to come back with 2 attacks against the swift attack model instead of just one.

 

Why do you think Frenzy, Nauseating and Fearsome work outside of being b2b? Frenzy doesn't cover b2b, because to use your MA or MAV you must be in b2b anyway by the rules governing attack action. Nauseating specifically says you must be in b2b, twice. Fearsome mentions being in b2b defensively via a charge action, and coming into b2b offensively. Additionally, frenzy is an SA that most models don't have, and a Gaan Hor troop could easily choose a target without it or take the punishment.

 

 

 

All of these exceptions are noted in the SA's description (granted Trample's is the most vague). You're right though, it seems super wrong and super broken and it kinda is. However! Just because this list is extremely effective in a stand up kill em all battle that doesn't mean it's any good in objective battles or scenarios. You lose the tactical strength of the flyers in several situations, namely take and hold.

 

We tested several of the flyers with swift attack (like Succubi and Gaan-Hor) and found that though powerful there were definitely foils built into the system to handle them. In Warlord there are basically 3 means of attack; Melee, Magic, and Missile. Melee tends to beat Missiles, Magic beats Melee, and Missiles pincushion Magic. . usually. Gaan-Hor are susceptible to both Magic and Missiles. Should a flight of these overgrown iguanas be spotted it is highly recommended to point all arrows and spells at them and be ready to get poked by the survivors. ::D:

 

I believe you were the one who got this ball rolling by telling us that the list was 98% unbeatable.

 

This list when properly utilized is about 98% undefeatable. It requires a little finesse but the results are the same, Reptus win.

 

Now I don't say any of this to start any wars or come off sounding negative about anything but because I love Warlord more than any table top game ever and I respect it enough to keep it real.

 

 

Exactly, I think too often people jump into this kind of thread thinking they need to defend Gus or Reaper, and in the process scare off the discussion. Every game has flaws and pointing them out only helps the game in the long run.

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I believe personally it is the most powerful list in existence at the 1k point level . . but I do believe there are lists that can beat it with fair consistency. LIkely the Gaan Hor list will hold the higher percentage of wins but that's because it relies on a simpler tactic and is innately deceptive as to how to beat it.

 

That's exactly what I was trying to say. ^_^ I just think those same list that can beat the Gaan Hor with CONSISTENCY would have trouble against a bear rider list, or crimson knight list, or Lion Lancer list, or something in that ball park. All of which haven been proven to be strong list time and time again but would all be destroyed by the Gaan Hor list. Only time shall tell..... ^_^

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Actually to Trample you must be in valid b2b with the starting and subsequent attacks.

 

Really? The text for trample reads as follows:

 

A model with this SA may use its Fight Action to move in a straight line over and through models with Standard size bases, up to the distance of its MOV. The Trampling model must enter one side of an enemy model's base and continue in a straight line that exits out the opposite side (i.e., the Trampling model cannot just clip the corner of another model's base), until it no longer overlaps the enemy model's base. The Trampling model does not need to completely cover the enemy model's base. The Trampling model must move in the direction that a flat side of its base faces (no model may turn 45 degrees to use a diamond base-shape in an effort to cover more area), and models on a Cavalry base may not use the long side of its base for this face. The Trampling model must have enough room at the end of the movement for its base, as in a normal movement, for it may not end its movement on top of another model. The movement must be completed before any attacks are made. Once the movement is completed, the Trampling model makes a single melee attack on each trampled model, in the order it Trampled them. All Melee SAs apply. Each defending model performs Defensive Strikes as normal, but the Disable SA cannot be used. Damage to the Trampling model occurs after each defender's Defensive Strikes, and it is therefore possible that attacks against models at the end of the Trample will be conducted with a lower MAV. If the Trampling model is destroyed before it finishes attacking all of the models it trampled, the remaining models are not trampled and no attacks are made against them. If the Trampling model has the Tough SA, it makes Tough rolls each time it takes damage that would destroy it, as normal.

 

Nowhere in there is base to base even mentioned. Furthermore, Trample is resolved AFTER the move, not afer each model trampled. So when, say 4 models are trampled, the trampler is placed at the END of the move then the attacks are resolved, not before. Trample not only doesn't conform to standard b2b rules it doesn't even conform to the standard Fight Action resolution rules as those state ALL damage takes place at the same time in a Fight Action. Clearly as indicated in Trample this is not the case as a trampling model can be destroyed before conducting it's attacks against all models it covers in it's movement. Trample is a MOVE action in which fighting occurs, not a Fight Action.

 

 

Reach. A reach model doesn't actually come into b2b with a model when it uses the reach attack and is also therefore not subject to non melee SA's. Furthermore Reach breaks from the rule that 3 or more models on one enemy equals support. Reach models only grant support during activations in which they are attacking a model.

 

Reach models must be in b2b with a model friendly that is in b2b with an enemy. The principal still holds and the SA specifies as such.

 

The point I was making is that no infact it does not get into b2b with the enemy and no infact the principal does not hold as it is the only situation in which a model cannot grant support by just being in b2b because it infact is NOT in b2b with the enemy but is still eligible to make melee Fight Actions against said enemy.

 

Swift Attack is one of these exceptions when coupled with Flyer. It doesn't require a model to make standard b2b contact but leaves them still susceptible to SA"s like Fearsome, Nauseating, and Frenzy as it is stated that they do make b2b contact. By the way, one of my favorite tactics when getting swift attacked is to use frenzy if a model has it to come back with 2 attacks against the swift attack model instead of just one.

 

Why do you think Frenzy, Nauseating and Fearsome work outside of being b2b? Frenzy doesn't cover b2b, because to use your MA or MAV you must be in b2b anyway by the rules governing attack action. Nauseating specifically says you must be in b2b, twice. Fearsome mentions being in b2b defensively via a charge action, and coming into b2b offensively. Additionally, frenzy is an SA that most models don't have, and a Gaan Hor troop could easily choose a target without it or take the punishment.

 

Again you are flat wrong here. I've already demonstrated in the previous 2 examples how there can be fighting outside of b2b contact as defined in the rules and even outside of the rules for Fight Action resolutions. In that statement I was stating that even though the Gaan Hor DO come into b2b and are therefore subject to all the SA"s involved in that process the manner by which they do it precludes them from requiring any real estate to do so. . i.e. they don't have to fit their bases in there and ergo it is an example on non standard b2b contact. Which you claim does not exist.

 

 

 

All of these exceptions are noted in the SA's description (granted Trample's is the most vague). You're right though, it seems super wrong and super broken and it kinda is. However! Just because this list is extremely effective in a stand up kill em all battle that doesn't mean it's any good in objective battles or scenarios. You lose the tactical strength of the flyers in several situations, namely take and hold.

 

We tested several of the flyers with swift attack (like Succubi and Gaan-Hor) and found that though powerful there were definitely foils built into the system to handle them. In Warlord there are basically 3 means of attack; Melee, Magic, and Missile. Melee tends to beat Missiles, Magic beats Melee, and Missiles pincushion Magic. . usually. Gaan-Hor are susceptible to both Magic and Missiles. Should a flight of these overgrown iguanas be spotted it is highly recommended to point all arrows and spells at them and be ready to get poked by the survivors. ::D:

 

I believe you were the one who got this ball rolling by telling us that the list was 98% unbeatable.

 

At the 500 point level this list IS about 98% unbeatable. I've only ever seen it lose once at the 500 point level. At the 1000 point level it's a completely different story. I've seen it lose and I believe I have atleast 2 lists that stand a fair chance of defeating it.

 

This list when properly utilized is about 98% undefeatable. It requires a little finesse but the results are the same, Reptus win.

 

Now I don't say any of this to start any wars or come off sounding negative about anything but because I love Warlord more than any table top game ever and I respect it enough to keep it real.

 

 

Exactly, I think too often people jump into this kind of thread thinking they need to defend Gus or Reaper, and in the process scare off the discussion. Every game has flaws and pointing them out only helps the game in the long run.

 

I agree Warlord has flaws, I also more strongly believe that people are too quick to label something as what it is or what it isn't, moreso I find that once people have decided a thing is or isn't something they ascribe their opinion as law and refuse to change their minds. I've been guilty of it too and I'm not discounting myself. But the facts are plain, I've seen lists that noone though could win dominate and lists that noone thought could lose fail to result in more than a handle of points taken out. The biggest factor as to why this seems to occur is knowledge and application of said knowledge in the current context. Translated that means "Use what you've got".

 

I don't see the Gaan Hor as a flaw. I see them as a frighteningly powerful unit that challenges players to devise ways to be better overall. Warlord has flaws, but the flaws it has are more behind the scenes things than things found on the tabletop to me. I don't jump to defend Reaper OR Gus. INFACT!! I am more belligerent towards Gus than most people and am amongst the first to tell him his breath stinks and he needs to go get a haircut because he looks like a half dead rat's more dead half. I do this because I expect much of him and because I know he can take it and dish it out in equal measure. That being said I also respect him and Reaper immensely because they truly live up to the ideals I look for in a gaming/hobbyist company.

 

Joshua

 

P.S. THough I may know much of Warlords' rules and such .. I know little about how to do multiple quotes effectively on this BB ::(:

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@ 'ViciousPanzer'

 

I'm not really sure how you can compare any of these examples to the flyers that don't take up space. Whether you subscribe to my interpretation of the rules or not you can't argue that in all examples real estate is being occupied and that is the issue with the "doom build".

 

Lists like this take the fun out of the game. Gaming groups shouldn't have to house rule this list or avoid those that play it. It's like the old volley/scrye shot lists. You couldn't beat it. You'd have 20+ shots coming from a hidden unit that could lay down a volley circle as big as a 10" dinner plate without LOS. Some things just are not going to be good for the game that was one this is another.

 

Take what I say with a grain of salt, but this isn't good for the game.

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As many times as I read it I never understood the flying swift attack until Gus shook me out of what I "thought" it should be. I had an idea in my head as to what it should be and no matter how many times I read I didnt see what was staring me in the face.

Now that I actually know what it is its gonna take some time for me to find a way to face it.

I must admit though I don't like it, to me it seems like cherry picking what you want regardless of what else is around IE a horde of skellies. A trampler cannot pick and choose to only trample the squishies, likewise a model with reach is in a very near and present danger.

So this flying divebomb attack is very powerful and maybe broken but thats a big maybe on my part I'll reserve final judgement until I've used the it properly.

 

VP,

You say the best way to defeat it is not to fight it, please elaborate some on this statement because I don't think you meant don't play it.

thanks

 

P.S.

RG your still my hero.

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Whether you subscribe to my interpretation of the rules or not

I just want to point out again that there is no "interpretation". The rules are (IMO) clear. The GaanHor do not need base room to 'land' to perform their flying swift-attacks. The Swift Attack description says so, and if anyone felt that wasn't clear, my own posts in this thread say so.

 

Flying Swift Attack represents a model swooping down and attacking, then flying away. I've seen plenty of local lists that simply don't have any squishy targets. The all Damage Reduction lists. The all DV 12-13 lists. The all archer list. A solid Overlords list with plenty of initiative control should be able to Winglock and take down the GaanHor 1-2 at a time. The 60 Bondslave army with 10 Taletias can winglock a ton of GaanHor while the bondslaves swarm and kill them.

 

I would hate to see a local group start house-ruling something or refusing to play something just because a thread on a forum said it is a problem. If it ain't actually a problem for your group, don't worry about it.

 

Finally, one more thing to keep in mind. In 2010, Reaper plans to have a Warlord Tournament System in place. The Tournament System will be completely scenario driven. While the Gaan Hor list can decimate armies in a 'to the death' game, I doubt they will do so well when they have to take-and-hold the board. Those DV 9s aren't holding squat. :devil:

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Great points Gus! I'll continue to keep an open mind about this list and look forward to seeing how it develops and works in a tournament setting.

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VP,

You say the best way to defeat it is not to fight it, please elaborate some on this statement because I don't think you meant don't play it.

thanks

 

I would be glad to. ::):

 

By not fighting it I mean don't allow it to do what it's built to do or take it on in a conventional manner. Trying to go "toe to toe" against this list is suicide. At 500 points I"m not entirely sure this list can be beaten with any reliability when played by a skilled player, at 1k points my preferred choice is the list Gus alluded to with the 60+ Bondslave Survivors, 10 Taletias, and some other nastiness involved. Afterall, that's the list that completely CRUSHED the previous "unbeatable" list. . the dreaded Daisy Chain Darkspawn or "Red Rover, Red Rover, let Rauthurous come over!" list. The battle report can be found somewhere. I can't find it at the moment. But, it was truly dismal for the Darkspawn as big bad demon daddy Rauthurous was slain by a handful of uppity, unwashed bondslave survivors!

 

The Broodmaster in a 500 point battle is like an Aircraft Carrier in RL. Supremely powerful but too expensive to replace if lost. Find a way to focus all your firepower on the big guy all at once (hence the 1 large troop theory of mine). Massed Archers are great for dropping the Gaan Hor but the flying dragonmen are a diversion. Kill the broodmaster and you almost automatically win because they have lost over 40% of their points. 1 on 1 the Gaan Hor aren't very powerful and as a swarm they won't be able to make up the points difference in losing the Broodmaster likely. So bring casters and a luck stone. Here is a list I feel would do well against the Winged Scaly Doom list:

 

Overlords - 500 points

 

Troop 1

Marquise Zora d'Arengo

Balthon, Priest of Khardullis

Bondslave Survivor x 11

 

Troop 2

Taletia, Disciple of Ashkrypt

Bondslave Survivor x 6

 

Troop 3

Taletia, Disciple of Ashkrypt

Bondslave Survivor x 6

 

Troop 4

Luck Stone

 

Even though it deviates from my as few troops as possible in a 500 point game tenet it brings lots of casters. With 4 casters (2 with Domination) you can do some interesting things to the reptus list. Dominating the Broodmaster and sending him after Pak Pao would be first priority! That removes the chance of facing a DV 13 model with DR/2. Next priority would be tossing out stupid amounts of Winglocks. And when they are winglocked take advantage of Zora's WA that allows slave models to make 3" runner/charge moves.

 

I would position the BSS's infront obviously since LoS is not an issue against flyers and also to ensure that I have range for my charge. When done correctly I should be dropping 2 Gaan Hor or so per winglock and slaying them on the ground when they are landed (probably at the loss of most of the BSS's involved). The opponent will either then waste time trying to kill Taletia's or Move deeper to get at Zora and Balthon who will also winglock and rush out BSS's. To drop the Broodmaster will be priority though and that will require finesse, a previous casting of Trance of Khardullis, a dual casting of Winglock, and a lil luck. BAsically lock him down and rush every single (now mindles and Martyring) BSS in Zora's troop into the Broodmaster that can make b2b. You will lose a bunch but with some luck you'll cripple or kill the broodmaster and still have a few BSS' alive.

 

That's one possible list but the gist is to find ways to delay the Broodmaster/kill it and simultaneously delay the Gaan Hor or get them to destroy a minimal amount of your points per activation, and have faith in your opponents likely overconfidence. The Ice, Enchant, Inferno, and Storm tomes are good choices. Any way to deny them an action on their next activation is groovy. Other fliers might be handy to soften them up and prevent them from having any place to really hide. In any event victory at 500 points will require supreme maneuvering and a little bit of luck. Here's another possible list that could be quite effective :

 

Darkspawn - 498 points

 

Troop 1

Witch Queen

Crescent of Bile

Broken Fodder x 2

Isiri Arachnid Archer x 2

 

Troop 2

Rauthuros

 

With the Demonic Conclave doctrine you have a few advatages. First is when the Witch Queen focuses to cast Dominate at CP 10 she becomes Nauseating until her next activation which makes it hard for the Gaan Hor to base her. Same concept with the Isiri. Have them Focus and shoot. Any hits they inflict will poison their foe and likely kill them at the end of the turn, don't shoot at broodmaster by the way ( mostly a wasted shot). Rauthuros can be used in a variety of ways. Since he can be summoned and get 2 actions he can be summoned to Rush attack the Broodmaster (Rauth's WA), or if luck is on your side summoned directly into b2b with the Broodmaster where he can then Focus and unleash hell. Conversely having him already out and in the front focusing and casting his innate spell (it's a cheap trick yeah) keeps him Nauseating and hard to engage while having him readily available to assault the Broodmaster AFTER you dominate and force him to devour Pak Pao lol.

 

That's a couple ideas I've had but haven't gotten to test yet. I hope they are helpful. I'm fairly good at developing tactics but fairly poor at describing in a general meaningful way to other people how I devised said tactics. ::):

Joshua

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