Toughness in Second Edition

[Deathlui]

Hello All,

 

Just wanted to get some clarification on toughness.

 

Let say I have a Crimson Knight with Tough/2. He goes up against a Big guy that has Mighty and takes three wounds. Because of mighty that makes it six. Does he have to take three separate toughness checks or just one? Does he take them right away or wait until his next activation? If he gets to wait until his next activation, when does he take the test? Beginning, end, whenever I want?

 

If I activate a troop with a mage, can the mage heal him so he doesn’t have to take the Tough test? Can he eat a human ally to regain a wound so he doesn’t have to take a Tough test?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Shakandara]

All damage from those attacks is taken at the same time, therefore your CK will make only a single Tough check. He makes them immediately after the resolution of all damage. And since the Tough check occurs immediately after damage is resolved, no, a spellcaster cannot heal him to avoid the Tough check. The Vampire SA requires that the model destroy a feedable model, which means that this free action must be taken after the resolution of damage. To take the free action to feed, the Vampire must still be on his feet, so he would have to make the Tough check first, then feed. Check out the two SAs, and the section of the Combat actions (which covers the steps involved in resolving the them), in the Warlord 2 book.

 

EDIT: Also, the Vampire SA issue is specifically addressed in the Errata/Carifications page on the Warlord site.

 

~v

Edited April 15, 2010 by Shakandara

[ViciousPanzer]

This would be a good time to check the steps for combat resolution. Your specific example would see the Crimson Knight taking all 6 points of damage on step 7 (as found on page 31 of the Warlord rulebook). Since 3 tracks of damage destroys the model it now immediately makes a tough check as tough states that whenever a model takes enough damage to destroy it it makes a 10+ roll modified by it's tough value (page 42). If this roll succeeds the model survives and is on it's last damage track, should it fail it is removed as being destroyed. So the Crimson Knight would only take 1 tough check regardless of the amount of damage taken. A model can never be forced to take more than one tough check per Fight Action or Shoot Action as all melee and shooting has to happen at the same time respectively. Even if that model is attacked by multiple models in the same fight action it still can only be forced to take 1 tough check (any additional attacks/damage against it are lost).

 

Magic is different though. Spells are declared before they are cast but may then be resolved in any order. So if 2 casters are going to cast fireball and bless, the bless can occur first hence giving the fireball a +1. This also means that if two attack spells are directed at a model it can potentially be forced to make 2 tough checks.

 

As to Vampire. Vampire only works when the model with vampire is on offense (won't work for defensive strikes) and only if the Vampire survives the fight action (page 43). This means that if the Crimson Knight in the example fails it's tough check against it's mighty opponent then it doesn't get to use the SA. If it succeeds though it can use Vampire provided that the model it attacked was A)destroyed and B) an eligible model (not undead, construct, or summoned, etc). The Vampire doesn't even have to be the one landing the killing blow, just has to have participated (and possibly hit the target, need a clarification). If successful with it's vampire SA the Crimson Knight would end the Fight Action on it's next to last damage track instead of it's last.

 

I hope this clarifies things a little.

 

Joshua

 

EDIT : Shakandara got to it a little quicker than me but I'm leaving it up nonetheless heheh

[Stubbdog]

Let say I have a Crimson Knight with Tough/2. He goes up against a Big guy that has Mighty and takes three wounds. Because of mighty that makes it six. Does he have to take three separate toughness checks or just one? Does he take them right away or wait until his next activation? If he gets to wait until his next activation, when does he take the test? Beginning, end, whenever I want?

 

Tough checks are made immediately following the combat sequence (after both offensive and defensive strikes have happened). Quick clean and simple. Either he stays up or he doesnt. No more kinda quasi "stunned" or unconscious state like there used to be.

 

And since in your example, the CK only "died" one time, he only has to take one tough check.

 

Here are a few more possible examples that could be more confusing but hopefully arent:

 

example 1:

Crimson knight attacks Dwarven Bear Rider.

CK hits DBR for 3 points of damage which is enough to "kill" the DBR therefore provoking a tough roll for the DBR (doesnt roll the tough yet, just saying it took enough damage to do so).

DBR hits CK for 2 hits (but does 3 points due to SA savage) which also is enough to "kill" the CK.

Now both models make rolls.

 

Possible outcomes:

 

A.

DBR fails his roll, he is now dead and removed from the table.

CK fails his roll, he is now dead and is removed from the table.

 

B.

DBR fails his roll, he is now dead and removed from the table.

CK passes his roll, he is still alive on his last track, but cause he killed the DBR he also gets to use his SA Vampire to heal a point.

 

C.

DBR makes his roll, he is alive on his last DT.

CK passes his roll, he is alive on his last track, but even though he did enough damage to kill the DBR, the DBR is not dead and therefore he cannot use the SA Vampire.

 

Example 2.

Dwarven Berzerker attacks Reptus Nagendra Ranger

DB hits RNR for 2 points, killing it

RNR hits DB for 2 points and poisoning DB, enough points to "kill" provoking a tough roll.

RNR makes his tough roll to survive on his last DT, but is still poisoned.

At the end of the game turn, if not healed, RNR has to a poison check roll, which he fails.. which then is enough to kill him, which provokes another tough check..

RNR passes the tough check to again still be alive on is last DT (not poisoned anymore)..

 

There are obviously a 100 different combinations possible. These are only a couple but hopefully enough to help you understand.

 

 

If I activate a troop with a mage, can the mage heal him so he doesn’t have to take the Tough test? Can he eat a human ally to regain a wound so he doesn’t have to take a Tough test?

 

Using my examples above,

 

1. No, there is no way to prevent having to make the tough rolls from the affects of the battle between the CK and the DBR since the tough rolls are immediate.

 

1b. And the only way to use SA Vampire is to be alive to use it. So, you could not use SA Vampire to heal yourself to keep from having to make a tough check, but once you make that tough check (if you do) you can use the SA vampire to heal up back to the 2nd DT.

 

2. Although you would not be able to prevent the tough rolls related to the damage that the RNR did to the DB, you could prevent the tough rolls related to the poison since that result does not take affect till the end of the game turn.

 

 

One last note: If you were in a faction that has access to the Divine Bless spell and you had cast it on the model with tough BEFORE the model did the melee that killed him, then you would get to use the blessing +1 benefit towards that tough roll.

[Deathlui]

Thank you all, that did clear up a lot of the questions. When I did a search on the forums for toughness it took me to some older post that just confused me more :)