Painted Armies for Tournaments

[BKBass]

It's not me it's the Gnomes I swear!!!

 

I love the game, I love the models, I love painted models good or bad, but most of all I love the environment Reaper creates compared to other game companies.

You want to paint your minis, cool, you want to game with unpainted minis, cool, would want to field an entire army of pumpkins, snowmen and mice that are proxies for demented blood sucking Gnomes, that's cool. Reaper creates this completely open environment that always puts the person before the product and that's what I love about this game.

[Doug Sundseth]

Doug: Let me clarify that the bulk of my post was not directed at you, though you seem to have taken it that way. Only the first two sentences directly apply to the quoted material. My apologies for not being more clear in that regard.

 

Fair enough, and I apologize if I seemed to take things personally that were not intended that way. This is an old debate that I've been involved in for probably 20 years.

 

But let's be clear here; I'm not trying to impose my rules on anyone. And I'm not quite sure how you interpret my bringing a motley (but legally based) painted proxy army to a tournament as something that is meant to "intentionally damage the play experience of another participant"... unless, of course, you mean that it is intentionally damaging to a person who gets upset because their opponent's painted army doesn't meet their standards.

 

I don't see any other way to read, "...just to prove the point that playing against a fully painted list isn't all it's cracked up to be" to mean that you were planning to make things worse by proxying only to increase your opponent's confusion. "Oh, yeah? Well, I'll show 'em how horrible it can be when you follow the rules" is not a reasonable response to rules you disagree with.

 

I do not support the imposition of arbitraty rules on the appearance of a player's army that has no bearing on the function of the game. I do support anything that encourages players to bring painted armies but that does not impact the actual game. As Joshua stated earlier, there are two distinct hobbies involved here. When they are combined, that's great, but neither should be a prerequisite of the other.

 

~v

 

I absolutely agree that painting should not impact the competition score.

 

Monopoly has figures, but it's not a miniatures game. Runebound has miniatures, but it's not a miniatures game either.

Miniatures gaming is about playing with painted figures.

 

I think it's unfortunate that you would require a painted army at your events Doug, just because you are closing the door on people that may be new to game, can't afford the paints, or just don't like that part of the hobby. I think the only reason people are disagreeing with your points is because your rules would ban them from your events; which I think we can all agree would suck.

 

I've never turned away a player for lack of an army. I've both borrowed and lent armies for tournaments, as have most other historical miniatures gamers I know.

 

Doug grins, asks about the family, makes sure you have met everyone in the room, then gives his goatee a stroke or two and transforms into a Blood-swilling Nightmare.

 

Have I played DBA or DBM with you before?

 

(But I must say that "swilling" is a bit harsh. "Sipping" perhaps, or maybe even "quaffing", but I can't recall a time when I "swilled".)

[BKBass]

My bad I thought Dan was talking about me with the goatee stroking. I didn't realize there was another Doug with a goatee that plays BSG with Dan. Small world!

[Wowahboy]

Yea, I was talking about BKBass Doug . . . but I'm up for a game of DBA anytime as well.

[Wowahboy]

Yea, I was talking about BKBass Doug . . . but I'm up for a game of DBA anytime as well.

 

Entered twice for clarity.

[Shakandara]

I don't see any other way to read, "...just to prove the point that playing against a fully painted list isn't all it's cracked up to be" to mean that you were planning to make things worse by proxying only to increase your opponent's confusion. "Oh, yeah? Well, I'll show 'em how horrible it can be when you follow the rules" is not a reasonable response to rules you disagree with.

No, I would never do anything to impact the actal play of the game. I would, however, gladly field an army composed of proxied painted models of every faction (and non-faction generic) that I own (and I do have a smattering painted from nearly every WL faction, including most of the coming SN factions). Everything would be on appropriate bases and distinct from everything else, but it would be a "hot mess" in terms of color schemes, basing styles, and general unifying theme. I can't imagine that a "painted army purist" would be especially happy with that list, but really, I wouldn't care. My army is not there to make them happy; it's there so I can play the game, and that's all.

 

Miniatures gaming is about playing with painted figures.

That is just an opinion, not a fact. A number of people share the opinion with you, but it is far from universal. When tournaments require painted armies to participate, it only serves to try to force that opinion on the rest of us, and it alienates players from one another. It is completely avoidable, with no effort at all.

 

~v

[Vaeris]

I don't see any other way to read, "...just to prove the point that playing against a fully painted list isn't all it's cracked up to be" to mean that you were planning to make things worse by proxying only to increase your opponent's confusion. "Oh, yeah? Well, I'll show 'em how horrible it can be when you follow the rules" is not a reasonable response to rules you disagree with.

No, I would never do anything to impact the actal play of the game. I would, however, gladly field an army composed of proxied painted models of every faction (and non-faction generic) that I own (and I do have a smattering painted from nearly every WL faction, including most of the coming SN factions). Everything would be on appropriate bases and distinct from everything else, but it would be a "hot mess" in terms of color schemes, basing styles, and general unifying theme. I can't imagine that a "painted army purist" would be especially happy with that list, but really, I wouldn't care. My army is not there to make them happy; it's there so I can play the game, and that's all.

 

Miniatures gaming is about playing with painted figures.

That is just an opinion, not a fact. A number of people share the opinion with you, but it is far from universal. When tournaments require painted armies to participate, it only serves to try to force that opinion on the rest of us, and it alienates players from one another. It is completely avoidable, with no effort at all.

 

~v

 

In response to the first I'd rather see a "hot mess" than a silver horde. I'm no "painted army purist" but that's my preference. The only things I would think would be that you were either color blind or or just naturally didn't know how to coordinate colors. Either way I'd respect that you made the effort.

 

As to the second I think it depends on the company behind it. Some look at assembling/painting miniatures as the first step in the overall hobby. That, to me, is why they have painted demo armies on the table to try to draw in new customers. If they didn't then why don't they just use unpainted minis for their demos?

 

Now, I understand there are a host of reasons people don't paint their minis. I'm by no means trying to sound like I'm judging them as I really don't care. Would I prefer to face a painted army over unpainted? Absolutly! Would I not play a person b/c they had an unpainted army? Of course not, though I may have 50 million questions about what's what, especially if they proxy. And as my mind is racing with a million other things tactically as far as what I want to do I may ask such questions numerous times.

 

I totally respect Gus' decision to not require painted models for events at the Asylum and ReaperCon. That said, I have to believe that a part of the idea behind Reaper minis is the assembling/painting of minis and then playing with them be it in Warlord or your weekly D&D group. Based on that I don't think it hurts a thing to offer up an award or three recognizing those who took the time to paint their Warlord minis. Especially if it doesn't give any game related bonus and considering that down the road sometime Gus could take photos of those armies in action at events and use said photos on the website to help market the game.

 

I agree, though, that anything done should only be in the vein of encouraging painting and not requiring.

[chipchuck]

You can play a game with these things?!?!

 

:)

 

Just kidding. I have played games with folks where they put the LEG of an Eldar dreadnaught on the table as their unit. I could care either way. For me, painting is more of a draw than the game, however I don't paint fast, so my opponents must bless me with understanding as many of mine will be primed. I do my best not to field unprimed or incomplete models, but sometimes a models pose allows nothing else.

[ktyler09]

haha Chip those were the days! Could have been worse he tried to field a blank base against me once and I told him to go buy some glue and start glueing!

[Lionheart]

It's probably a good thing I'm not a judge for any of your tournaments. I'd probably have to DQ you for poor sportsmanship.

 

It's probably a good thing I'm not a judge for any of your tournaments. I'd probably have to DQ you for poor sportsmanship.

 

-Lionheart.

[Doug Sundseth]

haha Chip those were the days! Could have been worse he tried to field a blank base against me once and I told him to go buy some glue and start glueing!

 

Why would that be worse than showing up with unpainted figures? (Seriously.)

 

The game plays the same either way and it's often easier to just put a label on a base than it is to try to figure out the difference between a PzVa and a PzVb by looking at the figures.

 

And it's a gaming tournament, not a modeling contest, after all.

 

You wouldn't want to prohibit somebody from playing for entirely arbitrary reasons, I assume.

 

[Doug Sundseth]

It's probably a good thing I'm not a judge for any of your tournaments. I'd probably have to DQ you for poor sportsmanship.

 

It's probably a good thing I'm not a judge for any of your tournaments. I'd probably have to DQ you for poor sportsmanship.

 

-Lionheart.

 

So, which do you find is the problem, my choice to show up with a painted army or my choice not to show up for tournaments that allow unpainted armies?

 

If it's the former, let's just say that I'll accept the DQ with gratitude. If it's the latter, disqualification from a tournament that you haven't entered seems not especially useful.

 

Good to know, I suppose, either way.

[ktyler09]

Why would that be worse than showing up with unpainted figures? (Seriously.)

 

The game plays the same either way and it's often easier to just put a label on a base than it is to try to figure out the difference between a PzVa and a PzVb by looking at the figures.

 

And it's a gaming tournament, not a modeling contest, after all.

 

You wouldn't want to prohibit somebody from playing for entirely arbitrary reasons, I assume.

 

 

 

Well this is a game played with mini's not empty bases. Sorry but I never said I had an issue with unpainted figures, I do however have an issue playing against an army of bases (or one model in an army with only a base). Also the guy that we were talking about was notorious about those sorts of things. If it were a one time, hey let me try this list out but I don't want to drop 30 bucks on large based model then I would be ok with that.

 

Also for old Warhammer 40k rules (mid to late 90's)cover played a large part in shooting as you had negatives to shooting rolls and well there was no way to tell how much cover a model had with only a base being there. Also for LOS purposes in 40K you have to know if you can see the model or not, so yeah unpainted is better than only a base with a label.

[vejlin]

I prefer painted minis, but that's MY preference. I'm not going to force it on others. Either way there aren't enough people around with fully painted armies that I'd consider boycotting unpainted armies (even if I though that would be reasonable) because all it would do was reduce the number of players. It would result in less fun.

 

Now as soon as it starts having an actual game effect THEN it bothers me. Empty bases don't bother me unless it becomes a hassle to keep track of what is what. But that can happen with proxies too. "yeah the goblin spearmen with dark blue caps are actually bondslaves, while the almost identical goblin spearmen with light blue caps are onyx phalanx" <<< THAT bothers me, especially if I start suspecting the guy is redefining what is what mid game to win.

[wildbill]

"yeah the goblin spearmen with dark blue caps are actually bondslaves, while the almost identical goblin spearmen with light blue caps are onyx phalanx" <<< THAT bothers me, especially if I start suspecting the guy is redefining what is what mid game to win.

 

That is an easy enough fix. Require anyone that is fielding proxies in your tournaments to provide a list to their opponents that details out what each model is supposed to represent. In your example, there would be a picture of the goblin with the dark blue cap next to the bondslave datacard and a picture of the goblin with the light blue caps next to a phalanx datacard. If you made that requirement, people like Shakandara and myself would still go through the trouble of proxying (because we can ) and the people like in your example would just play Reven (or not at all).

 

Like I said, that is for tournaments. For friendly games, do whatever you want. I've never really had an issue at a tournament I have run with regards to proxies. People either brought the Warlord models or the proxies were really obvious. I use the DHL Dwarves all of the time, mostly for my leader and elite models. When Ivar was non-unique, I bought a second Dwarf mage/cleric that was holding a book and a staff. Pretty "magey" to me. And my opponents found it obvious too. I also had the alternate DHL Bear Rider sculpts as well. I would use one as Ursula (before her model came out) and use the normal Thorvald models as the grunts. Again, it stood out.

 

Wild Bill