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Painting Competition Comments and Discussion

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Your comments about style...well have you noticed that your style is not unconventional? It is in the style that won last year and this year, even though there were much better styles available in this years showing.

Emphasis mine -

 

Maya, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot here. You're arguing for more objectiveness, while apparently unable to be objective yourself. If different styles should be able to compete objectively, how can one be better than another?

 

 

Why am I shooting myself in the foot, I'm not a judge. :) If asked to judge I would not, because I could recognize too many peoples work to be objective. That is the point. Different styles SHOULD be able to compete objectively, THAT is the thought behind the open system. Something that is not working here because there is no objectivity. The open system works because it has no true competitiveness to it. Having an open system PLUS a "true" contest embedded in it, defeats the entire concept of an open contest.

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As someone who comes from the historical side of things, I have been hearing many of these complaints for years, and really I have come to two conclusions, 1) The Open System is the only fair way to go, kudos to Reaper for usng it (and kudos to Anne for mentioning Shep Paine and Doug Cohen) and 2) you aren't going to change peoples' minds, if they want to find fault with something, they will. WRT 54mm (or larger) being easier to paint than minis; while I am amazed at what can be accomplished with minis, I say try a 54mm or larger, it's a whole dfferent ball game.

 

 

I agree with number 1. IF you kill the trophy part of the contest. OR have a plain ordinary contest. It is hard to change peoples minds when they have observed and overhead a lot of things that should not have happened.

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No it is the judges knowing you. And yes, having a conversation with a judge just before they go judge is suspect, duh. Now you are being deliberately obtuse. You know what I mean. As for knowing. Have I said a few words to anyone, yep. Would I say I'm buddy buddy with the judges, newp. But you know and visit with a few quite often don't you, get mentoring and the like? I believe you are missing my entire point and taking my original post as if I aimed it at you, which makes me say "Huh? What the..."

 

 

When I go to Reaper Con I am not there very long. I pop in for a few hours to mingle and then head back to the house to work.

 

As for talking with and getting pointers from the judges--nope. I don't. I don't go to paint club, I don't visit with any of the judges or instructors unless at Reaper Con and even that is "Hey, how's life?" When I met Doug I had no idea he was a judge until he said something. We just talked about how we both got into painting. That was it.

 

I mean, not talking to the judges for a convention painting contest-they'd have to be sequestered somewhere and not allowed to enjoy the convention at all.

 

The only feedback I get is from posting my finished pieces on here and on Cool Mini or Not. That's it.

 

I don't feel like what you are saying is aimed at me. I am just debating you and speaking from my experience. As for being deliberately obtuse--yes but because I don't know exactly what you mean. If you are going to argue for or against something then you have to define all terms being used. Such as degree of familiarity or favoring styles or what have you.

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Having an open system PLUS a "true" contest embedded in it, defeats the entire concept of an open contest.

So what you are saying here is that either they should go with a competition based contest OR an open system only? That there is no way the two can exist side by side?

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This was my first time entering. I took home a bronze medal (yay!). I felt that the competition was well run from start to finish. The awards, from bronze to Sophies seemed to be handled just fine to me.

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We are getting very close to Reducio ab Hitlerum...I'm starting a betting pool. I say in five more replies, someone is gonna be called a "nazi". ;)

 

Okay, so here's more kerosine for the Incarnation of Flame...

 

In my opinion there are two events going on. The event I entered was the "what level are you painting on" where you win a medal based on a pre-defined level of skill. The other is the Sophie Trophies which uses the same entry field, but I knew at my current level of skill, I had no chance. That's why I wasn't upset to learn I didn't win one. But I was totally cool with knowing I rate bronze. As soon as I won that, I thought, "Totally Awesome! Now how do I win a silver next year?" I think that's the point there.

 

It looks like I've become a champion for independent judges (ahh the internet, so powerful, yet powerless to convey tone), actually, I don't care who judges. I'm happy to know that Anne, et al, excuse themselves when they know an artist. I'm not naive enough to think no one is biased, but at the same time, you get feelings on people and I have good feelings about everyone I've met so far at Reaper. (ReaperBryan even felt me inappropreatly! Just kidding, much love RB) Until I see a reason to think they are unfair, I like to trust that the human race is not so far lost.

 

I think the elephant in the room may be, "What did you enter, Maya? What did it rate, and what do you belive it should have rated? Why do you think it should have rated that, and did you take the opportunity that the judges gave (from Painting Contest info post) to ask them what made your mini fit into that category?"

 

I entered the Gnomish Bard

It rated a Bronze

I expected a Certificate

This Saturday at Paint Club I'm going to ask Anne what I need to do to push it to Silver. (Would have done it at the Con but I live around here and didn't want to take up a visitor's time)

 

(An attempt to lighten the mood, may be twisted by the internet into fanning flames...)

Good God! Organizing events since you were 12! Are their no child labor laws in this country. (runs around screaming, "Someone think of the children!!!!")

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Having an open system PLUS a "true" contest embedded in it, defeats the entire concept of an open contest.

So what you are saying here is that either they should go with a competition based contest OR an open system only? That there is no way the two can exist side by side?

 

 

There is no way they can exist side by side when you have judges making their picks and saying they have decided on the trophy winners before entry taking is even closed. But it was misleading to tell public that this was to be the open concept where it is based against a standard but not that the standard was for one style only.

 

The original complaints are getting lost here. They were "pros winning". By "pro" in this case it is people who paint for Reaper or paint-jobs Reaper commissioned where before all of Reapers staff and commissioned painters had their own category, which was fair in most entrants eyes. "The unfairness". Means you need independent people judging. It kills any question of unfairness and frankly, Reaper staff, contract painters entering, judges entering and judging and winning, all of this comes across as unfair no matter how you slice it or how well intentioned, or how many safeguards are there. It will never come across any other way. And for gods sake, have your judges, independent or not, NOT discuss their already made up choices in the hallway, or crowded display room while you are still taking entries. Unprofessional and unfair.

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We are getting very close to Reducio ab Hitlerum...I'm starting a betting pool. I say in five more replies, someone is gonna be called a "nazi". ;)

 

 

I entered the Gnomish Bard

It rated a Bronze

I expected a Certificate

This Saturday at Paint Club I'm going to ask Anne what I need to do to push it to Silver. (Would have done it at the Con but I live around here and didn't want to take up a visitor's time)

 

(An attempt to lighten the mood, may be twisted by the internet into fanning flames...)

Good God! Organizing events since you were 12! Are their no child labor laws in this country. (runs around screaming, "Someone think of the children!!!!")

 

Chuck you Nazi you!!!! :poke:

 

Whenever you are at a con ask people for their feedback! I have only ever been ignored once and that person shall remain nameless. And if I'm ever around ask me! I love helping people. If I didn't get help by going to cons and sending people emails I wouldn't be where I am today.

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Maya, would you be willing to post links to some examples of what you're meaning by different styles? I just want to make sure I'm reading the term the same way you intend it. I know the pictures of this year's entries aren't up yet, but maybe you could look through last years or CMON or something for a few examples, particularly of styles you feel were overlooked?

 

I can see a broad US vs. Euro style. I think Mathew Baich represented the Euro style at this year's con, and did well. Jeremie Bonament Teboul participated last year and won one of the Best in Shows as well as medals.

 

The historical painters that entered this year and last definitely have a different approach that I find intriguing. More emphasis on the posing of figures and story-telling and the overall impact and less on stroke perfect painting. Most of their work blows my socks off! I hope they'll continue participating and even more I hope they'll start giving classes or something. They were awarded high medals by the judges. I don't think any of them entered Reaper models this year, but Doug Cohen did last year and won a gold Sophie and one of the Best in Shows.

 

Another style I can think of is the Steve Dean/Foundry style of 3-4 shades per colour dramatically placed to emphasize the contour of the figure. I defintely think this method of painting (and other fast/army methods) require skill, technique and practice. To me it would seem more appropriate to judge styles like that against one another in units or armies, but maybe that kind of attitude is the sort of prejudice that concerns you?

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We are getting very close to Reducio ab Hitlerum...I'm starting a betting pool. I say in five more replies, someone is gonna be called a "nazi". ;)

 

Okay, so here's more kerosine for the Incarnation of Flame...

 

In my opinion there are two events going on. The event I entered was the "what level are you painting on" where you win a medal based on a pre-defined level of skill. The other is the Sophie Trophies which uses the same entry field, but I knew at my current level of skill, I had no chance. That's why I wasn't upset to learn I didn't win one. But I was totally cool with knowing I rate bronze. As soon as I won that, I thought, "Totally Awesome! Now how do I win a silver next year?" I think that's the point there.

 

It looks like I've become a champion for independent judges (ahh the internet, so powerful, yet powerless to convey tone), actually, I don't care who judges. I'm happy to know that Anne, et al, excuse themselves when they know an artist. I'm not naive enough to think no one is biased, but at the same time, you get feelings on people and I have good feelings about everyone I've met so far at Reaper. (ReaperBryan even felt me inappropreatly! Just kidding, much love RB) Until I see a reason to think they are unfair, I like to trust that the human race is not so far lost.

 

I think the elephant in the room may be, "What did you enter, Maya? What did it rate, and what do you belive it should have rated? Why do you think it should have rated that, and did you take the opportunity that the judges gave (from Painting Contest info post) to ask them what made your mini fit into that category?"

 

I entered the Gnomish Bard

It rated a Bronze

I expected a Certificate

This Saturday at Paint Club I'm going to ask Anne what I need to do to push it to Silver. (Would have done it at the Con but I live around here and didn't want to take up a visitor's time)

 

(An attempt to lighten the mood, may be twisted by the internet into fanning flames...)

Good God! Organizing events since you were 12! Are their no child labor laws in this country. (runs around screaming, "Someone think of the children!!!!")

 

 

Elephant in the room.. Heh, as I told one of the sculptors, I entered and expected to get nothing,b ecause I do not paint in the style they like. The contest was not my primary reason for attending, but I did garner two bronzes. It was those comments from the judges in the display room that ticked me off. There is nothing fair about prejudging anyone's work when the entries have no even closed. It is totally unprofessional to blab it in full volume where anyone could overhear. No wonder people were complaining about how it was run. Most people would not complain at all because they will be entering next year. I don't have that problem. I never had. If there is an injustice that I see, then it should be righted.

 

Yes, I was homeschooled and at 12 I was a docent at the Alabama Department of History, leading tours in three galleries, hosting monthly speaker events and was a full-time on a dig under the mentorship of two archaeologists. At 13 I won a grant from the Endowment for the Humanities to conduct and publish my own research. At 14 I wrote a chapter for the archaeologists to be included in the digs final publications and at 15 I was asked by a third archaeologist to write a chapter that would be included in another historical digs final publication. At 12 I was not just a helper for running events, I was doing my own at that age. They ranged from small groups of a hundred to several thousand for Tae Kwon Do tournaments. Just like time doesn't equal quality, age doesn't give experience. :)

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It was those comments from the judges in the display room that ticked me off. There is nothing fair about prejudging anyone's work when the entries have no even closed. It is totally unprofessional to blab it in full volume where anyone could overhear. No wonder people were complaining about how it was run. Most people would not complain at all because they will be entering next year. I don't have that problem.

 

Yes that is a valid point about the judges speaking openly and like that. It shouldn't have happened. Hopefully it won't again.

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It was those comments from the judges in the display room that ticked me off. There is nothing fair about prejudging anyone's work when the entries have no even closed. It is totally unprofessional to blab it in full volume where anyone could overhear. No wonder people were complaining about how it was run. Most people would not complain at all because they will be entering next year. I don't have that problem.

 

Yes that is a valid point about the judges speaking openly and like that. It shouldn't have happened. Hopefully it won't again.

 

 

Which is the valid point that shouldn't happen again? The prejudging or the judges speaking openly about prejudging. I think neither should be happening again.

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Do you know for a fact that the people talking were in fact judges? I mean I know that Anne and Doug were judging but beyond that I'm not sure I know who it was.

 

The valid point is that the judges should not speak about the entries they like. I've overheard this happen at Games Day myself. It is defeating.

 

 

Are there any other opinions out there about the competition? I'd like to hear from more people who participated to see how they felt.

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Do you know for a fact that the people talking were in fact judges? I mean I know that Anne and Doug were judging but beyond that I'm not sure I know who it was.

 

The valid point is that the judges should not speak about the entries they like. I've overheard this happen at Games Day myself. It is defeating.

 

 

Yep they were. They were talking to each other one said "I have chosen the three I am voting to give the trophies to", the other said "I have only chosen two" Then the conversation turned to when they needed to close the room so the other judges could come in and judge. Yes, I think it is safe to say they were judges.

 

The valid point is that they did not speak about the entries they liked. They pre-picked winners and then talked about having pre-picked winners while entries were still coming in. Pre-picking is a nono anyway you slice it.

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There is no way they can exist side by side when you have judges making their picks and saying they have decided on the trophy winners before entry taking is even closed.

Fair enough. If this is indeed the case, I would say that you should provide details to Anne via private method, so that she can deal with it.

 

But it was misleading to tell public that this was to be the open concept where it is based against a standard but not that the standard was for one style only.

Before this goes any further, perhaps we should have you define what you mean by style and maybe some examples. Because I could go off on a tangent completely unrelated to what you actually mean.

 

The original complaints are getting lost here. They were "pros winning". By "pro" in this case it is people who paint for Reaper or paint-jobs Reaper commissioned where before all of Reapers staff and commissioned painters had their own category, which was fair in most entrants eyes.

like chipchuck, I see two different contests here. IMO, by the time most people are good enough to get the gold in the open format and really compete for a Sophie, they may already be classified as a pro, if not, they're probably good enough to compete against them.

 

 

"The unfairness". Means you need independent people judging. It kills any question of unfairness and frankly, Reaper staff, contract painters entering, judges entering and judging and winning, all of this comes across as unfair no matter how you slice it or how well intentioned, or how many safeguards are there. It will never come across any other way.

I can see some of your points, but not all of them.

 

The problem here is how do you identify who's a contract painter or otherwise Reaper affiliated? At least half of the really good painters I know here in Denver have painted at least one piece for Reaper. Hell, I've painted a piece for Reaper, back in the 90s when they were looking for painters, and you could get four free minis by agreeing to paint one of them and return it to them.

 

I could see arguing the point that judges can't enter, or that they can't judge a category in which they've entered. But to completely rule out any sort of Reaper affiliation at all means there won't be many people left to compete.

 

 

And for gods sake, have your judges, independent or not, NOT discuss their already made up choices in the hallway, or crowded display room while you are still taking entries. Unprofessional and unfair.

Agreed - and as I said above, please take the details to Anne.

 

But - wasn't the Best of Show voting open to all?

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