Hammer of the Mountain God

[spiritual_exorcist]

Hammer of the Mountain God = SA Mighty

 

The Hammer doesn't specify that the Mighty SA applies only to melee attacks, therefore does it also apply to ranged attacks.

 

eg. Snorri + Hammer of the Mountain God (not that the combo of Mighty + Assassin isn't awesome alread), does the Mighty SA apply to Snorri's ranged attacks as well?

[Gus Landt]

The Hammer doesn't specify that the Mighty SA applies only to melee attacks

Answered it yourself.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Thanks Gus, just wanted to make sure , those hefty 50 points for the Hammer are slowly looking to be more and more worthwhile, good stuff.

[Lawgiver]

The Hammer doesn't specify that the Mighty SA applies only to melee attacks

Answered it yourself.

This is an oversight not the original intention though isn't it?

 

If that's going to be the official ruling, it had deeper implications of "silliness", because "Bonesplitter", "Mace of Righteousness" and "Sword of Feeding" (and possibly others, I quit looking) are going to have the same loop hole.

 

"Looks guys, I put this magic hammer on my belt and now my crossbow hurts more... it's awesome!".

[spiritual_exorcist]

The Hammer doesn't specify that the Mighty SA applies only to melee attacks

Answered it yourself.

This is an oversight not the original intention though isn't it?

 

If that's going to be the official ruling, it had deeper implications of "silliness", because "Bonesplitter", "Mace of Righteousness" and "Sword of Feeding" (and possibly others, I quit looking) are going to have the same loop hole.

 

"Looks guys, I put this magic hammer on my belt and now my crossbow hurts more... it's awesome!".

 

Ok, this made me do a double take and some investigating because it provoked some concern in me as well.

 

Oversight or intentional very few magice items would fall under this category, in fact both Bonespillter, and Sword of feeding fail the test.

 

Bonesplitter adds the cleave SA to a miniature, and cleave is a melee specific SA. To get Mighty you have to already have Cleave, and there are no Reven models with ranged attacks that start with the Cleave SA (No Mercs either).

 

Sword of feeding directly specifies that it works with offensive and defensive strikes, therefore a regeneration roll doesn't occur when a model kills an enemy with a ranged attack.

 

One can assume that a term such as 'Mace of Righteousness' is a generalization, nothing wrong with a 'Bow of Righteousness', and certainly the game isn't unbalaced because of it. And Gee, maybe the Dwarf even has a X-Bow of the Mountain God, or, low and behold, maybe certain Dwarf characters have the skill to throw a magic hammer (ala Mjolnir), or perhaps as you say, the Hammer being carried infuses the Dwarf with divine powers that carry over to all actions.

 

Comprehensive list of Magic Items that would give ranged attacks direct benefits, and the ranged attackers that can use them:

 

Mace of Righteousness (causes hit model to pass Dis or be shaken, Acacia)

 

Hammer of the Mountain God (grants Mighty, Snorri, Tohil, Klaus, and Kara)

 

This is it, every other magic item grants benefits that are specifically melee related. (are directly specified to apply to one of the following: Fight actions, melee combat, grant melee specific special abilities, have impact when using offensive or defensive strikes)

 

Now I cannot see how either of the above items is seriously game breaking, the Mace on Acacia certainly cannot be argued as such. And while the Hammer of the Mountain god is super nasty, it has a prohibative points cost that prevents it from getting out of hand. If you decide to use Kara and Snorri witht he Hammer, you will have a game or two where your opponent will be taken aback (like anything new), after that your enemies will get used to it and adjust their tactics. Truthfully given that Kara and Klaus have pierce already, you might be able to get more bang for your buck just putting a ranged magic weapon on such models, and adding another Piercer to your army for the 50 points (or for 62 points adding two piercers).

 

Realistically only Snorri and Klaus really have the melee abilities to use the Hammer in both melee and ranged combat, and while I agree Snorri is pretty impressive with the hammer, Klaus would be a real risk, 96 points for a 2 track DV 8 model is not a real bargain (even with his ranged abilities he has to get exceptionally close). And while Snorri is probably very much worth it, he is still a Solo, which disadvantages him a fair bit as a melee model in his ability to easily co-ordinate attacks.

 

So I'll make the case that the hammer used in such a manner isn't out of this world, and can be left alone for now, unless we begin to see real evidence that it is a game breaker in tournaments and regular play. I just don't see it as happening.

 

Edit: Mercs can use plunder, so Artemis, Dingo, Rod Blackreef, Shad, and Dedris become potential users of the Mace and Hammer as well. But I don't see any of them being more threatening than the Dwarf models in the list above, so unless someone has a direct complaint about one of them I won't worry too much about them right now. Dendris looks pretty cool with a Hammer on her, but not much different than Snorri.

[wildbill]

And while the Hammer of the Mountain god is super nasty, it has a prohibative points cost that prevents it from getting out of hand.

 

This is a tad off topic, but not too long ago Warwick and I played a 2,000 point battle. I decided to go very item heavy my build, just to see how it would do. He was playing his Vampire army, and I don't remember what all was in it. But, Vampires are very tough to face off against. Anyways, here is the army I was fielding:

 

Logan + Hammer + Mithril Armor + Book of Tactics

Durgam + Hammer

Ivar + Familiar

5 Berserkers

5 Warriors

Musician

Standard

 

Stone Spirit

 

Logrim + Hammer

Maragara

Durthen + Hammer

4 Berserkers

4 Warriors

Musician

Standard

 

Earth Elemental

 

Valana

4 Forgemaidens

Musician

 

Totem

 

Totals: 2,000 Points, 31 Models, 5 Troops, 6 Init Cards

 

The idea was that the abundance of Hammers would allow lots of Mighty action, and with the addition of the Totem, I should be cuisinarting the Vampires. While we ended up with about the same number of models (amazingly enough), it just didn't work out the way I envisioned. Counting standards and musicians, I have over 500 points worth of equipment. Ouch. Dump the Forgemaiden unit and throw in some bear riders or shieldmaidens and I would have been better off. Well, ok, the standards and musicians would have stayed, but still...I never did throw an Earthquake spell, despite having the opportunity to cast it 4 times. It just never seemed to play out in my favor. I was moving instead of spending a specialty action to cast the spell, or else I wasn't in range, or else I would have hit my own guys. Anyways, Warwick pretty much thumped me that game.

 

I think using the Hammer on a mage or a shooter like Snorri may be technically correct, but I think it defeats the intent of the Hammer. It was never anything I ever considered doing, nor will I ever use it. I guess if Gus says it's ok, then ok. I am with SE in that I don't see it becoming all of a sudden a major tournament winner due to its 50 point cost.

 

Wild Bill

[Lawgiver]

Oversight or intentional very few magice items would fall under this category, in fact both Bonespillter, and Sword of feeding fail the test.

agreed.

Sword of feeding - I missed the "strikes" context. When I read it the first time I was thinking generic term for melee or range as opposed to "shots" for ranged.

 

One can assume that a term such as 'Mace of Righteousness' is a generalization, nothing wrong with a 'Bow of Righteousness'

Except that's bad logic.

 

low and behold, maybe certain Dwarf characters have the skill to throw a magic hammer (ala Mjolnir)

But only if they know how to use some other ranged weapon of a completely different type because otherwise they don't "magically" gain a RAV from a hammer. The ability to effectively shoot a crossbow doesn't mean I can throw a hammer with skill. Apparently the "magic" is only strong enough to convert abilities "halfway", not imbue with the ability from nothingness....poor logic.

 

This is it, every other magic item grants benefits that are specifically melee related. (are directly specified to apply to one of the following: Fight actions, melee combat, grant melee specific special abilities, have impact when using offensive or defensive strikes)

Darkspawn "Gruesome Weapon" - Model gains the Demoralize SA and Vicious SA.

Icingstead - "Frost Axe" - UNIQUE: The first hit of each Fight Action the model performs each Activation causes the hit model to be Held. Does not work on Defensive Strikes. (not sure what a "Fight" action constitutes since I don't have the book here. Does that translate generically to a "Combat Action" or specifically to a "Melee Action"? [sarcasm]Though I guess it also depends if it's convertible to a "Frost Bow"...[/sarcasm])

 

Now I cannot see how either of the above items is seriously game breaking

So if I do, does that change the outcome? Is that the rule of thumb for a resolution? It only breaks it a little, not a lot so we should allow it.

http://www.despair.com/ir.html

[Lawgiver]

I guess if Gus says it's ok, then ok.

Doesn't mean I can't try to plead the case the other direction. There have been reversals in the past. Consider it a Coach's Challenge flag for an official review. If, when it's "final" (preferably in the errata/clarifications) I'm good with that.

[Stubbdog]

I will leave the ruling part to Gus. Just addressing LG's question.

 

Fight actions are specifically melee attacks.

[wildbill]

sarcasm]Though I guess it also depends if it's convertible to a "Frost Bow"...[/sarcasm])

 

When I first read this, I thought it said Frosty Brew!!

[shakhak]

I think the best logic to use here is that Rules win. The rules have also been clarified by, Gus, so that we know that the items can be used both ways.

 

I'm sure that in the future there may be extra verbiage or more appropriate names for the new magic items we create, but for now I don't see any problems with the current situation.

 

I'm sure that when I tell our local dwarf about the clarification he'll get excited and create some new builds. I doubt that any of his builds would come close to being unstoppable.

[spiritual_exorcist]

 

This is it, every other magic item grants benefits that are specifically melee related. (are directly specified to apply to one of the following: Fight actions, melee combat, grant melee specific special abilities, have impact when using offensive or defensive strikes)

Darkspawn "Gruesome Weapon" - Model gains the Demoralize SA and Vicious SA.

Icingstead - "Frost Axe" - UNIQUE: The first hit of each Fight Action the model performs each Activation causes the hit model to be Held. Does not work on Defensive Strikes. (not sure what a "Fight" action constitutes since I don't have the book here. Does that translate generically to a "Combat Action" or specifically to a "Melee Action"? [sarcasm]Though I guess it also depends if it's convertible to a "Frost Bow"...[/sarcasm])

 

 

Jason already answered the Fight action question, Fight actions are specifically melee, Shoot actions are specifically ranged, so the Frost Axe is out.

 

Gruesome Weapon: both Demoralize and Vicious are melee special abilities, and do not apply to ranged attacks.

 

Mighty, Disable, Flame Attack, and Poison are the only SA currently in publication (there was Critical in playtest at one time but it currently appears on no models) that are both a melee and ranged SA.

 

Is Hammer of the Mountain God used for ranged attacks poor logic, quite possibly I agree, but then again we are dealing with a fantasy setting where we have to suspend our logic frequently, so I don't think it is a huge stretch. And really Weapon of the Mountain God just doesn't sound as cool.

 

Ultimately this discussion should be all about gameplay. And the question is: Does giving any Dwarf or Mercenary model the Hammer increase their effectiveness beyond what the 50 point cost of the Hammer warrants?

 

In no instance that I can presently see is this case (my opinion of course). In fact I'd say models that are already Casters (allowing them to cast twice in one activation of the game), and models that are both melee and ranged minded are probably the only models that even come close to getting their points value worth out of the Hammer. Slap Mighty on any of these models, and given them the Innate ability to cast Earthquake once and I can't imagine any but a few (all of whom are unique by the way) pushing their cost up 50 points.

 

I will speculate that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the item was called Amulet of the Mountain God.

 

Something like the following is probably the most effective use of the Hammer, and I can't see it being abusive or unfun to play against.

 

Dwarves - 1000 points

 

Troop 1

Fulumbar Ironhammer

Klaus Copperthumb

+Hammer of the Mountain God

Gilam, Rune Spelunker

Warrior x 3

Swiftaxe x 3

Mancatcher x 2

 

Troop 2

Fulumbar Ironhammer

Kara Foehunter

+Hammer of the Mountain God

Margara Firetongue

Warrior x 3

Swiftaxe x 3

Mancatcher x 2

 

Troop 3

Snorri Oathbreaker

+Mithril Armor

+Hammer of the Mountain God

[Qwyksilver]

I doubt that any of his builds would come close to being unstoppable.

 

Wow. Harsh. But a very polite way to say Dwarves suck

[Lawgiver]

Gruesome Weapon: both Demoralize and Vicious are melee special abilities, and do not apply to ranged attacks.

Read them again. Using your own argument, since neither specifically say Melee, they can be used in ranged combat. The limitation is that it's typically only given to models in the Melee SAs section. As is, if the logic for the Hammer stands Gruesome weapon becomes effective a ranged weapon.

 

Demoralize - the end of any Activation in which a model with this SA kills an enemy model, all other enemy models in B2B with this model must pass a Discipline Check or become Shaken.

 

Vicious - Whenever a model with this SA damages another model, the damaged model must pass a Discipline Check or become Shaken. Only one Discipline Check is needed per Activation, regardless of the number of points of damage or the number of Vicious models attacking.

 

Is Hammer of the Mountain God used for ranged attacks poor logic, quite possibly I agree, but then again we are dealing with a fantasy setting where we have to suspend our logic frequently, so I don't think it is a huge stretch.

Cop out.

 

And really Weapon of the Mountain God just doesn't sound as cool.

points at:

Abyssal Weapon

Gruesome Weapon

Holy Weapon

Vampiric Weapon

Magic Weapon

Magic Ranged Weapon

 

Though I agree the name is much cooler.

 

Ultimately this discussion should be all about gameplay.

I thought it was. My point isn't purely the balance of the hammer, it's the application of the rule to other items (most of which have been found to be invalid). Gruesome Weapon however suddenly becomes unbalanced for 10 pts. Which needs to be taken into consideration in the argument IMO.

 

And the question is: Does giving any Dwarf or Mercenary model the Hammer increase their effectiveness beyond what the 50 point cost of the Hammer warrants?

It does if that wasn't it's intention/method of playtest/intended purpose. Again the balance on Gruesome Weapon also has to be taken into consideraion.

 

 

I will speculate that we wouldn't even be having this discussion if the item was called Amulet of the Mountain God.

Point being? Strawman argument.

If it said "all attacks" we wouldn't be having it either.

[Lawgiver]

I doubt that any of his builds would come close to being unstoppable.

 

Wow. Harsh. But a very polite way to say Dwarves suck

 

Because they consume too much "Frosty Brew"...