GW review I found amusing

[Bumble_B]

BumbleB as for that article you quoted that is GW screwing us at BoLS because American media laws prevent them from suing us for talking about their product. They hate us so much because we make their direct marketing and preview market irrelevant. Trust me when I say this has nothing to do with sales and everything to do with us.

 

/Begin Rant

 

I believe you.

My problem seems to be the fact that when there is something that GW feels is wrong or the local stores feels is wrong, they don't look at the problem and say "OK how can we fix this, and make it a win, win for everyone?" they seem to go, "OK, what can we take away to fix this?".

 

I personally am in an odd position as a gamer, and I can't imagine I am that far off then some other people.

Small town USA. My gaming community consists of mainly military playing 40k and just recently the small group that was playing WHFB in their garages and houses, have come out and played a few games at my LGS.

 

I've wanted to get into a miniature game for a long time. I love painting. GW products have always scared me away, because of the costs and the players. I can't drop 500 to get started on a game I might not enjoy. Or 200 for that matter. I see 40K players argue more than smile while playing. It's just not an environment I want to be a part of.

 

PP products don't exist in my community unfortunately. Few people that do play must be hiding underground and the store has only carried a few things (usually just doubling up on the oddball things I order).

 

Forget about the other great games that could be out there. Malifaux, Warlord, Infinity, Kings of War, whatever your poison. Getting a game like WarmaHordes going is hard enough let alone something noone has heard of.

 

I recently did some work for the LGS and was given about 200 dollars of WHFB products in payment. Tomb Kings. Enough for a good foundation .. but still not enough to play. I start looking at the things I need. 18 dollars for this guy, 18 dollars for another guy (both single minis), 33 dollars for this group, ... my heart just sinks.

 

I have been GIVEN WHFB products and I still don't want to make more of an investment. I don't want to sink money into a game that the company keeps doing what GW is doing. Where I have to keep purchasing the same models over and over again because they are holding one stinking weapon difference. I don't want to play a game because I have made an "investment" into it and that's my only choice.

 

PP products are just as expensive as GW products, but the way they go about it is different. You can customize. You don't have to purchase 5 boxes of the same models just to have someone holding a spear instead of a mace. The starters are cheaper. The rules are cheaper. The product is same high quality and the company listens to the players. And most importantly, it might be 100 miles away from me, but the players I see are having FUN!!

 

Games should be fun. Should have great fluff. Should be entertaining and draw people in with good costs and the enjoyment of others.

PP has everything going for them but cost. They are the lesser of two evils. If I had to pick one, I would back PP vs GW any day of the weak just because of the company. I hope over time enough other gamers do the same that maybe GW will take look at themselves and change.

 

/End Rant

 

And as a side note, I wish Reaper was a true gaming company. I love the company more than any other, because of their prices and attitude. If they had a game as popular as 40K and could still remain the same as far as a company, well ... that's my dream honestly.

 

[Dr.Bedlam]

inferior product at a higher price only hurts in the long run.

 

Don't know as I agree with that. Seems to me that a crappy product will find its own level, its own market niche, to speak of... namely, none. You can only ride a brand name so far before you begin burning out your customer goodwill. Near as I can tell, their entire market strategy is "gouge the customer for all you can get, because he will abandon the game in time no matter what. We will depend on each new generation picking up on GW's market saturation and prestige power in order to maintain our market share."

 

This attitude led to an old grognard gamer, me, dumping their product because I didn't care for their prices and their attitude. It has led to a fair number of younger gamers either not being able to afford to get in in the first place, or trying to get started and being disillusioned. When people feel rotten about your product and/or your company, this would seem to be to translate into "fewer customers, and therefore less $ flow." Bumble's remarks above would seem to reinforce this.

 

BumbleB as for that article you quoted that is GW screwing us at BoLS because American media laws prevent them from suing us for talking about their product. They hate us so much because we make their direct marketing and preview market irrelevant. Trust me when I say this has nothing to do with sales and everything to do with us.

 

I am not at all sure I understand what you are talking about, here... you're saying that British websites would not legally be allowed to talk about GW products? Do explain.

[Kannan Fodder]

I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in being cost conscientious when I go miniatures shopping, which usually eliminates GW from my list of options. Consider a few months back I bought a metal figure of Lelith Hesperax for $11.99. Now the same figure is priced at $18.50 as Finecast resin. That's nearly a $7 price increase.

 

And for roughly the same $18.50 cost, I can get 3 Pathfinder figures.

 

I've had friends try to get me into 40K, and while I was interested for a while, I just can't afford it. This is not hatemongering, it's simply the fact that GW has hiked their prices beyond what I'm able to spend to get a playable force. Also, those pushing me to invest in the game aren't buying 40K products themselves - because "it's too expensive". When GW went to offering most "grunt" types in plastic, I thought they were going to lower their prices and make the game more affordable, but the opposite happened.

 

~M

[psyberwolfe1]

Bedlam IP laws in the UK allow companies to shut down web sites for talking about IP even in a fair use discussion.For example if I quoted a rule to discuss the rule in the UK they can just shut that website down. What's worse is GW has successfully stopped people from displaying pictures of their painted figures because the sculpt is theirs. On top of that they regularly send us cease and desist orders from British courts and our IP lawyer sends them back our good old American middle finger of our laws. Most of us have received personal cease and desists and threats of being sued. Everytime we send them copies of Ameeican fair use standards. Currently they are pissed because we vetted their last two fantasy supplements and gave them a bad review which basically hurt their sales of those products. It's not just us but we're one of the bigger fish out there. The problem is they want to continue doing a piss poor job and not suffer the consequences. What they don't realize is that now people are going to wait to purchase and see what the national champions that write for BOLS say.

[Dr.Bedlam]

IP laws in the UK allow companies to shut down web sites for talking about IP even in a fair use discussion.

 

My first impulse here was to say, "Oh, come on, you're exaggerating."

 

But rather than be rashly insulting, I went and looked it up.

 

You don't seem to be exaggerating. Not by much, anyway. In fact, when one takes into account your entire statement, you don't seem to be outside the truth at all.

 

Daaaang. I confess my ignorance, and I thank you for the enlightenment. That's just WRONG. I mean, I know England isn't exactly bound by the American constitutional guarantees of free speech and all... but... eeesh. I wouldn't have thought such a thing was enforceable...

[Ddot]

That almost qualifies for the attention of Anonymous* if they're shutting down websites for posting pics of painted GW models... Universally understood as one of the better ways to get people to "ooh" and "ahh" and get interested about the hobby. (*Anonymous= internet hackers who will crash your site for percieved-and real- wrongs against the Internet community. I don't condone their methods, but they do tend to have a point.)

-Of course, the big problem is vis-a-vis the tournament community. GW loves screwing with the rules (especially of late), usually invalidating armies. As a WHF player, I collected a Chaos armythat was a solid mix of beasts, daemons, and mortals... and they went amd invalidated it by making all three mutually exclusive armies!!! Meaning I had to either buy a whole bunch more chaos figs of a certain type -or- stop playing chaos altogether. Seeing how I sold off all my chaos figs, guess which way I went.

[Dr.Bedlam]

-Of course, the big problem is vis-a-vis the tournament community. GW loves screwing with the rules (especially of late), usually invalidating armies. As a WHF player, I collected a Chaos armythat was a solid mix of beasts, daemons, and mortals... and they went amd invalidated it by making all three mutually exclusive armies!!!

 

Mm-hm. Same thing happened with me, except I was collecting Undead... and they went and split everything into Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts...

[Ddot]

(cont.) The edition creep (which is quite frequent) is also very discouraging. I had managed to trade some mortal units for some daemons, just enough to do a 2k list with a tooled-up Lord of Change... Who now (in 8th ed., which most players locally play ,cuz it's the official edition) suddenly cost too much points-wise to field, meaning I'd have to buy another 650 points of lesser models (no small feat at current price points)... EBay became my friend at that point.

-honestly, 40k should bne due for 6th ed pretty soon (they need to sell rulezbookz after all) at which point the shiny new Dark eldar armies the 40k,ers bought up will probably get nerfed by the general game rules. 4th ed (where I came in) worked well enough, and Tau Empire made the army a bit more workable, but they still have issues. Unfortunately, a new codex will probably bring enough points changes to where I'll have to make a buy-or-sell decision for a game I'm ambivelent-at-best about. Just bad acting all around on their part.

[psyberwolfe1]

My first impulse here was to say, "Oh, come on, you're exaggerating."

 

But rather than be rashly insulting, I went and looked it up.

 

You don't seem to be exaggerating. Not by much, anyway. In fact, when one takes into account your entire statement, you don't seem to be outside the truth at all.

 

Daaaang. I confess my ignorance, and I thank you for the enlightenment. That's just WRONG. I mean, I know England isn't exactly bound by the American constitutional guarantees of free speech and all... but... eeesh. I wouldn't have thought such a thing was enforceable...

There are days I wish I were making this stuff up because it makes for great fiction. So instead I'll raise my morning cup of joe to you and say you're welcome.

[Wumby]

I live in the Richmond, VA area and it is quite amazing how their marketing schemata works. First off, I don't game, I can barely consider myself a painter either, since it's been a while.... Either way, the community here is strong their is one store that is quickly becoming the mecca of gaming in Central VA and the store is friggin' awesome. With that said, no one knows of a magnificent company named Reaper, I do special order some paints to shop local, but that's a different story. Folks here play Warmachine/Warmahordes, 40k, Malifaux, and WHF. WM, Malifaux, and Hordes is growing in popularity as a result of a much less buy-in to play. Yet, beginning with the release of new Dark Eldar, kids were unloading tons of GW stuff to pick up the DE, then it's the Grey Knights, then it's to get cash for the Tomb Kings. Amazing, the amount of $ being dropped to turn around and sell NIB, primed, partially built/painted models for pennies on the dollar. I picked up over $150 retail of Warmachine models for $25 last month. There are folks like me who say, "Hmm, that's looks fun to paint, but I'm not paying THAT for it." We reap the benefits as a result of frequent miniature markets from the store, and a forum with a thread for buying/selling/trading stuff.

[joshuaslater]

The secondary market is a huge element in the rough and tumble world of miniatures. It's been a major factor in the downfall of some gaming companies.

[Bruunwald]

I am inclined to agree with Heisler.

I'm inclined to agree with the Dr., agreeing with Heisler, agreeing with himself, or... or...

 

Anyway, I don't think the industry is in decline at all. New games are erupting all the time. True, they come and go, but that's always been the case. Right now, we have companies from overseas shipping in bits by the bucketful, various domestic companies putting out new releases all the time, hobby stores packed with materials from basing to terrain-making. All good signs to me.

 

And best of all, last weekend I sold out all my terrain at my table at one of those anime cons. I killed my old record of $70 with a whopping $324 in sales. There was tons of interest, not only in the terrains as use for wargames, but also for RPGs. Terrains are notoriously hard to move at these cons (I really go just to help my wife, who has a thriving business). All this interest is a very good sign.

 

One thing, I will note, is that there was more... I don't want to call it ill will - for GW than normal. Let's just say there was the usual griping about price, and more people knew about Warmachine and Malifaux and could speak intelligently about them, than at previous cons. More people also were aware of Reaper minis, even identifying some that I was using to show scale for my terrains. There were similar feelings (pro-PP/anti-GW) expressed by several at my FLGS today. And a lot of good will expressed for Pathfinder at both the con last week and the FLGS today.

 

My feeling is that we might be in the middle of a shift, where the people who were fringe to the hobby are learning more about it. The growing strength of Steampunk as a genre might be pushing this, too, so more people get their first taste of gaming from systems that are more friendly to that. I also feel that we little guys can help stem any decline in minis gaming by doing what I did last weekend: putting a good, friendly face on our community by selling good product cheap and being as informative and chatty as possible.

[Dr.Bedlam]

Bruunwald makes a fine point. My experience with gaming stores falls into two categories:

 

(a) The place that's glad to see you, and

(b) the place that couldn't care less.

 

One is interested in selling you something, and encouraging you to come back and buy something else. The other comes across like Comic Book Guy from The Simpsons -- supercilious, dismissive, and jerkish at worst, simply indifferent at best. One promotes gaming and hobbies. The other gives an impression of insularity and standoffishness at best.

 

Rereading these posts, I find myself thinking about a gaming shope I liked a lot back in the early eighties. They sold a lot of different gaming product... including miniatures. But their entire miniatures display was perhaps the size of a normal door. It had lots of different KINDS of minis -- Napoleonics, some WWII, Ral Partha, Grenadier, Martian Metals, and stuff... but out of this whole store, the minis rack was only ... maybe... three feet wide by six or seven feet high. It catered to Napoleonics players and people looking for Dungeons and Dragons minis (oh, yeah, and some OGRE and Car Wars stuff, iirc). Rest of the store was books, pamphlets, boxed games, and so forth. Minis were there, and they were fun, but there just wasn't that much call.

 

Now, I look at the gaming shops I frequent, and I see entire WALLS devoted to miniatures. Games Workshop. Reaper. Malifaux. Flames of War. Warmachine. Half a dozen new minis games, some Steampunk thing, all fighting like hell for their share of the hobby. And that's not to mention the plastic stuff -- HeroClix, HaloClix, Axis and Allies, and more on the way.

 

Miniatures ain't goin' away anytime soon.

[Akiosama]

It will be interesting to see which way GW goes on this hobby. I'm inclined to agree on the posts regarding resin FineCast models - they haven't yet lived up to their name. However, in all fairness, I haven't seen PP or Reaper's Resin kits yet, but given what I've experienced in the past, I'm thinking they'll be better. I've had very little trouble with either company in the past with miscasts, missing parts or the likes. Though, GW's customer service used to be decent (they replaced a couple miscasts for me with no problem), but that was in the days of the Trolls.

 

Interestingly enough, I came across an opinion on a YouTube 'podcast' that gives a reasonable possibility of what GW might actually be up to... It was posted by Chris of AG Productions, and it goes a bit like this, to paraphrase...

 

"GW seems to be making it harder for non-GW retailers (online store or their own brick-and-mortar shops) to sell GW product by restricting online sales (strange sales conditions and the restriction of using their product image on websites) and making stocking brick-and-mortar shops more awkward (due to 'flavor-of-the-month' non-40K/WHFB release games which are heavily advertised at their release and then abandoned quickly, release patterns/edition changes that affect current stock sales, restrictions on order sizes/contents, etc.). The purpose of this might be that GW wants to become the only retailer for their own products because as a retailer their margin is much higher than simply as a producer.

 

"How this might work is -

 

"Say GW gives a 50% wholesale price on an item to a store. For example, the new price for Assault on Black Reach is roughly $100. They sell it to the store for $50, which means in order for them to make a profit on it as a producer, it has to cost less than $50. Let's hypothesize that it costs them $40 to manufacture a set. Meaning, each one they sell is a profit of $10, if they sell to a store. However, if they sell the set themselves to an end customer, that profit is $60 instead of $10, the equivalent of selling 6 boxes to a retailer for resale. Thus, if they can cripple the ability for people to buy GW stuff at non-GW retailers, yet (somehow - it might be a stretch, IMO - Akiosama) maintain the 'fanbase', then their profits multiply significantly, practically overnight.

 

"If they could pull that off, their stock price would go through the roof - and it's all about shareholders, now that GW is a publicly traded company."

 

There was more to be said in the original piece, but that was the gist of the argument. Seems plausible to me.

 

THERE IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, so to speak, BETWEEN GW AS A PRODUCER AND GW AS A RETAILER. And the FLGS's will be the ultimate victims, I believe. It's sad, since this hobby wouldn't be what it is today without those very FLGS's.

 

While I'm disappointed that PP couldn't keep their prices lower than GW's going forward, they have a good game going, and while it's model heavier than the previous edition, I'd say that they're relatively even with GW on army cost on the average. And so far, they haven't had edition changes cripple armies yet, like GW has (as evidenced by talking to Wood Elf/Beastmen players in the current edition), and left armies with very little current updates (Necrons are from what edition? Chaos Dwarf Army Book, anyone?)

 

And I wish that Reaper's game systems were accessible enough that the systems could actually support their figures. Warlord and CAV are nice, but not many people play them at all compared to GW and PP's games, unfortunately.

 

[And I'm in a bit of a quandry, too. My local GW store has a great crowd and a good guy running the store, while my local (F?)LGS's staff leaves a lot to be desired, and most of the guys who play these games won't hit the LGS due to the staff, so we only have a reliable place to play GW games...]

 

But the future of the mini-game world is shifting. PP's not going away, Reaper's still generally making better, more affordable minis than the other 'game companies', GW's making significant changes to their product and sales policies, and the economy still hasn't stabilized in regards to supporting an industry that is purely entertainment. I hope that improvements come over time, and that this remains a hobby worth it to stick to.

 

My 2 yen,

 

Akiosama

 

 

 

 

P.S. - One other thing I'd like people to keep in mind... FLGS's give a lot to this hobby. The space they offer for people to be able to play is not free for them, so please, if you do play at a store, support the store by making purchases at the store. I don't think the trend of 'play at the local store, buy online cheaper' is necessarily a good one, and I even purchase things from that LGS I meantioned above, because I use their tables from time to time. Those tables are a courtesy, not a right. If it weren't for the fact that the community is so accustomed to the idea of the free gaming area that it would hurt the store more than it would help, I'd feel that a reasonable table usage fee wouldn't be out of line, especially since they tend to supply table, terrain, lights and (sometimes) AC.

 

Again, please support your FLGS if you use their space for gaming.

[Lars Porsenna]

That's an interesting theory, and this has been hashed out on Warseer. To restate my opinions on this:

 

1. I don't believe this in a second.

 

2. IF true, GW can pretty much kiss the US market good bye.

 

3. IF true, GW is sacrificing somewhere around 40-60% of its income sources for the HOPE of a higher profit return by directing customers to their stores. This might work in the UK, but will NOT work in the US.

 

The change in trade terms is due to Australian and NZ customers ordering from UK discounters, because of the unfairly high prices in Australia. Even buying GW retail is a 20% or so discount on Australian prices. The trade terms were enacted to protect B&M stores in Australia, and drive customers there instead of on-line. It remains to be seen if it will work, but the trade policy at least tries to protect the B&M stores, even if I agree the pricing in Australia is excessively unfair, and this is not a solution for the real problem.

 

For myself, I buy at my FLGS all the time, if for no other reason than they give me a permanent 10% off everything in the store, as a reward for being a good customer, and my addiction to metal crack helping to keep them afloat during the unsteady first years...

 

Damon.