Second edition question

[torak101]

I just received my copy of the new second edition...(not the Savage North but the base book)

 

Are there campaign rules in the Savage North?

Are the loot rules in the Savage North?

Are the build of custom character rules in the Savage North?

 

I'm kinda feeling a bit ripped off. The rules are stripped down, there are no color photos.

 

I know it was only 20 bucks but the first edition was only 24.95...huge completeness and quality disparity between the two IMHO. Not to mention organization is screwy. The faction descriptions are in the front and the faction stats are all in the back.

 

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed with the book.

[Shakandara]

I just received my copy of the new second edition...(not the Savage North but the base book)

 

Are there campaign rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

Are the loot rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

Are the build of custom character rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

I'm kinda feeling a bit ripped off. The rules are stripped down, there are no color photos.

 

I know it was only 20 bucks but the first edition was only 24.95...huge completeness and quality disparity between the two IMHO. Not to mention organization is screwy. The faction descriptions are in the front and the faction stats are all in the back.

 

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed with the book.

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed. Before you take your ball and go home, you might want to consider the following:

 

1. Regarding cost, the first Edition book was printed in much greater numbers. The Second edition revision was performed largely by a bunch of volunteers that poured a year's worth of their free time in to the game in the hopes that Reaper would consider giving the game another shake at a printed rulebook it desperately needed. Because of this, the print run was much smaller and the book was produced in black and white. Fortuntately (or I guess, unfortunately from your perspective), it did well enough off of that first printing to warrant a reprint, and a follow-up hardsover, Savage North. But the bottom line really is, prices have gone up, everywhere for everything - yes, the Second edition softcover is only $5 less than the First edition hardcover, but it is also the exact same number of pages (144), and was printed 5 years later. To expect differently is wishful thinking at best, and plain ignorant at worst.

 

2. The "screwy organization", as you call it, is *exactly* the same as the First edition hardcover; each faction has a fluff section in the front of the book (p.8-27 First ed vs. p. 6-15 Second ed) with the model fluff and datacards in the back (again, p. 80-109 for First ed, vs. p. 54-141 for Second ed).

 

3. I'm guessing that when you say the rules have been stripped down in Second edition, you are referring to the removal of things like Stunts (p.77-78), the horrible convoluted Campaign system (p.114-127, 130-139), the Generic Cards and their completely unbalanced customization rules (p.140-143). Oh, and let's not forget the Role-playing section (p.30.-32)...

 

Yes, these things were removed, and all with very good reason. Warlord is a wargame, not a RPG. The goal of the rulebook is to provide everything needed to play it as a wargame. The fact is, all this other stuff (and the painting guide too) went by the wayside to make room for a better, cleaner game with more datacards than every before. As I am disinclined to count them, I can't say for certain how many datacards existed solely in the First edition hardcover. I can say, definitively, that there are 393 Datacards in the Second edition book. I'd guess that the First edition book has less than half that. The First edition book had a whopping 16 spells; the Second edition book has 13 *Tomes* of spells, each having 5 spells a piece (except Open), and that does not include the Faction-specific spells.

 

If anything, the rules have been bulked up (where it matters most), not stripped down. And if you can't find a datacard close enough to what you want from the incredible 610 datacards present in the game (counting those from the SN hardcover), then I'd suggest that you aren't trying very hard.

 

It's a shame you feel ripped off, as I expect it will probably sour any game experience you try to take away from Second edition. Which is sad, because it really is a much, much better game now.

 

~v

Edited July 16, 2011 by Shakandara

[torak101]

I agree the magic system update is nice (but that sorta dips into the issue of why it wasn't really all that well done or thought out in the first ed.)

 

I was thinking / hoping rather than removing everything that made the system stand out a bit more from others, there would be updates to smooth out and correct the issues you pointed out. My bad. I will keep my expectations to a minimum from here on in regards to Warlord products I would preferred to pay more for an actual second ed rather than Warlord light.

 

Data cards are available online as is an army builder. I never mentioned them, you did.

 

 

 

I just received my copy of the new second edition...(not the Savage North but the base book)

 

Are there campaign rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

Are the loot rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

Are the build of custom character rules in the Savage North?

No.

 

I'm kinda feeling a bit ripped off. The rules are stripped down, there are no color photos.

 

I know it was only 20 bucks but the first edition was only 24.95...huge completeness and quality disparity between the two IMHO. Not to mention organization is screwy. The faction descriptions are in the front and the faction stats are all in the back.

 

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed with the book.

Sorry to hear that you are disappointed. Before you take your ball and go home, you might want to consider the following:

 

1. Regarding cost, the first Edition book was printed in much greater numbers. The Second edition revision was performed largely by a bunch of volunteers that poured a year's worth of their free time in to the game in the hopes that Reaper would consider giving the game another shake at a printed rulebook it desperately needed. Because of this, the print run was much smaller and the book was produced in black and white. Fortuntately (or I guess, unfortunately from your perspective), it did well enough off of that first printing to warrant a reprint, and a follow-up hardsover, Savage North. But the bottom line really is, prices have gone up, everywhere for everything - yes, the Second edition softcover is only $5 less than the First edition hardcover, but it is also the exact same number of pages (144), and was printed 5 years later. To expect differently is wishful thinking at best, and plain ignorant at worst.

 

2. The "screwy organization", as you call it, is *exactly* the same as the First edition hardcover; each faction has a fluff section in the front of the book (p.8-27 First ed vs. p. 6-15 Second ed) with the model fluff and datacards in the back (again, p. 80-109 for First ed, vs. p. 54-141 for Second ed).

 

3. I'm guessing that when you say the rules have been stripped down in Second edition, you are referring to the removal of things like Stunts (p.77-78), the horrible convoluted Campaign system (p.114-127, 130-139), the Generic Cards and their completely unbalanced customization rules (p.140-143). Oh, and let's not forget the Role-playing section (p.30.-32)...

 

Yes, these things were removed, and all with very good reason. Warlord is a wargame, not a RPG. The goal of the rulebook is to provide everything needed to play it as a wargame. The fact is, all this other stuff (and the painting guide too) went by the wayside to make room for a better, cleaner game with more datacards than every before. As I am disinclined to count them, I can't say for certain how many datacards existed solely in the First edition hardcover. I can say, definitively, that there are 393 Datacards in the Second edition book. I'd guess that the First edition book has less than half that. The First edition book had a whopping 16 spells; the Second edition book has 13 *Tomes* of spells, each having 5 spells a piece (except Open), and that does not include the Faction-specific spells.

 

If anything, the rules have been bulked up (where it matters most), not stripped down. And if you can't find a datacard close enough to what you want from the incredible 610 datacards present in the game (counting those from the SN hardcover), then I'd suggest that you aren't trying very hard.

 

It's a shame you feel ripped off, as I expect it will probably sour any game experience you try to take away from Second edition. Which is sad, because it really is a much, much better game now.

 

~v

[wildger]

I agree the magic system update is nice (but that sorta dips into the issue of why it wasn't really all that well done or thought out in the first ed.)

 

I was thinking / hoping rather than removing everything that made the system stand out a bit more from others, there would be updates to smooth out and correct the issues you pointed out. My bad. I will keep my expectations to a minimum from here on in regards to Warlord products I would preferred to pay more for an actual second ed rather than Warlord light.

 

 

Since the start of Warlord in 2004, there has been many updates. Too many to the point that no one wants to hear about it anymore. Indeed, if I remember correctly, there was also a revision of the first edition. The 2nd edition is a very remarkable work of 5 year of constant playtesting and everyone enjoys it. Indeed, you are the very first one I heard who does not like it. It seem to me that you have never played with the first edition or never visited this forum to find out what was going on prior to your registration in 2008. Indeed, you appear to be unhappy for getting a bad deal with a B/W book instead of a colored book. I am very confident to say that people here do not share with your view and there is no need to you to keep on questioning why things could not be done right in the beginning. If you want a game with lots of rules, spells, equipment and colorful pictures, Warhammer Fantasy Battle may be a better choice for you. It is at its 8th edition and there will be more to come.

[herzogbrian]

SNIP.... Indeed, you appear to be unhappy for getting a bad deal with a B/W book instead of a colored book. I am very confident to say that people here do not share with your view and there is no need to you to keep on questioning why things could not be done right in the beginning. If you want a game with lots of rules, spells, equipment and colorful pictures, Warhammer Fantasy Battle may be a better choice for you. It is at its 8th edition and there will be more to come.

 

...and how much $ is the WFB book selling for these days compared to the B/W Warlord book? Any difference in the prices of the models?

[Shakandara]

I agree the magic system update is nice (but that sorta dips into the issue of why it wasn't really all that well done or thought out in the first ed.)

 

I was thinking / hoping rather than removing everything that made the system stand out a bit more from others, there would be updates to smooth out and correct the issues you pointed out. My bad. I will keep my expectations to a minimum from here on in regards to Warlord products I would preferred to pay more for an actual second ed rather than Warlord light.

 

So fixing something that was broken has no value? Or is it just not worth acknowledging? The design team overhauled the core mechanics of the game (no small task) and got it done in time to be released before GenCon in '09. The book is hardly Warlord Light - it contains everything needed to play the game; the fact that the First edition book contained other (ill-conceived) items is irrelevant. Your expectations have been pretty clear by your attitude about the Second edition book. Because the book did not meet with what you wanted, it is worthless. You are entitled to your opinion in that regard, just don't expect me to share it. Return the book to the retailer that you purchased it from or sell it on eBay if you feel so ripped off by the content. While you may want to pay more for a book that has more material in it, is full color, and whatever else, not everyone else shares that opinion, and your livelihood is not determined by the sales of such a book. The people that work at Reaper don't have that luxury; Warlord was all but dead when the Second edition was released. Placing the type of book you wanted on the market would have been a huge risk for them, one they chose not to take.

 

The Savage North book was produced as a hardcover, has color material, and features the return of the painting guide. The custom datacards will not return; they were broken, and the only way to fix them would be to release the entire points formula used for balancing models. That's just not going to happen. There has been talk about the possibility of a campaign system, but whether or not that comes to pass remains to be seen. The reality is that Reaper is not a Game company, they are a Miniatures company; this point has been made repeatedly here and elsewhere on these forums. Miniatures will come first for them, like it or not. If you really want a workable Campaign system for the game, step up and try to help come up with one. That's what people did to get the Second edition as far as it has come.

 

Data cards are available online as is an army builder. I never mentioned them, you did.

Was there a point to this comment? If there was, you certainly didn't make it.

 

~v

[Ddot]

Let me bring a different perspective to this: I discovered Warlord about a year ago and recently played my initial games. Coming from WHFB (6/7 ed) and Hordesmachine (1/2) I found the streamlined rules rather enjoyable. They covered quite a bit of interesting situations and introduced a few neat things. Random activation order? Brillinat! Then I actually played some games under the system, and guess what? Not only does it make sense and work, but my buddy and I finished our first 500 pt game in under an hour. We played two more in the next two hours and have finished "kill em all" in 25 minutes or less twice since then.

-In short, we love the game. The rules cover what they need to and give players enough leeway to add other stuff. (most of the scenarios we use are from Hordesmachine, and they run well with Warlord.)

[spiritual_exorcist]

Warlord continues to have many of the things that have aalways made it special (not totaly unique, as some of these things appear in other games in different combos):

 

#1) Extremely flexible army design. There is very little that is prescribed. This became even more the case in 2nd edition, with the removal of many artificial restrictions on troop design. In fact, there are very few constraints on what can be included in a given troop, and the number of troops that need to be fielded in a given game. Most armies also have the flexibility to be played in many different ways.

 

#2) Mixed troops. Following on army design, each troop can contain a large variety of different models in it. This allows you to play just about any model in just about any army of any size; allowing you to squeeze in one or two beefy high point models into a small point size game without compromising your model count.

 

#3) Troop activation rather than army activation. Warlord is not a game (unlike some others) that is often lost because your opponent moves first. Warlords troop activation system is extremely flexible and dynamic, and allows players to react to their opponents; likewise it forces players to manage their resources and assess the risks of activating/not activating a given troop at a given time. It means that the same game turn can play out numerous ways depending upon initiative and how a given player utilises it.

 

#4) Game balance. I've very rarely seen an utter blow-out in Warlord, the games are (assuming two skilled players) very often come down to just a few models left on the field. I've seen many come-back, and in Warlord the game isn't over until it is over; I never resign myself to having lost a game. even if it appears I am beaten early on (i've made enough come-backs to know that every model in the game can make a difference if played skillfully). Likewise, very few armies are non-competitive. A horde army can play an army made of just a few models and each side still has a decent chance of winning despite their model count.

 

#5) Variety. There are 19 factions in the game, each of which has several different army/warlord abilities that can be chosen to make them even more different. I would say very very few games can match this. If you have a taste for a certain type of fantasy army, you'll find it in warlord.

 

I'll admit I'm pretty biased as I spent a lot of time helping Gus and Jason out with Warlord 2, but I honestly think it has really improved drastically from the initial first edition.

 

PS: The generic cards were really really broken. But reaper has so many armies now that you can likely find a datacard that does what you want it to do. Meaning you can proxy in a model for a given datacard.

 

PPS: If you like stunts from 1st edition I see no reason you couldn't use them in 2nd edition.

[herzogbrian]

Warlord continues to have many of the things that have aalways made it special (not totaly unique, as some of these things appear in other games in different combos):

 

#1) Extremely flexible army design. There is very little that is prescribed. This became even more the case in 2nd edition, with the removal of many artificial restrictions on troop design. In fact, there are very few constraints on what can be included in a given troop, and the number of troops that need to be fielded in a given game. Most armies also have the flexibility to be played in many different ways.

 

#2) Mixed troops. Following on army design, each troop can contain a large variety of different models in it. This allows you to play just about any model in just about any army of any size; allowing you to squeeze in one or two beefy high point models into a small point size game without compromising your model count.

 

#3) Troop activation rather than army activation. Warlord is not a game (unlike some others) that is often lost because your opponent moves first. Warlords troop activation system is extremely flexible and dynamic, and allows players to react to their opponents; likewise it forces players to manage their resources and assess the risks of activating/not activating a given troop at a given time. It means that the same game turn can play out numerous ways depending upon initiative and how a given player utilises it.

 

#4) Game balance. I've very rarely seen an utter blow-out in Warlord, the games are (assuming two skilled players) very often come down to just a few models left on the field. I've seen many come-back, and in Warlord the game isn't over until it is over; I never resign myself to having lost a game. even if it appears I am beaten early on (i've made enough come-backs to know that every model in the game can make a difference if played skillfully). Likewise, very few armies are non-competitive. A horde army can play an army made of just a few models and each side still has a decent chance of winning despite their model count.

 

#5) Variety. There are 19 factions in the game, each of which has several different army/warlord abilities that can be chosen to make them even more different. I would say very very few games can match this. If you have a taste for a certain type of fantasy army, you'll find it in warlord.

 

I'll admit I'm pretty biased as I spent a lot of time helping Gus and Jason out with Warlord 2, but I honestly think it has really improved drastically from the initial first edition.

 

PS: The generic cards were really really broken. But reaper has so many armies now that you can likely find a datacard that does what you want it to do. Meaning you can proxy in a model for a given datacard.

 

PPS: If you like stunts from 1st edition I see no reason you couldn't use them in 2nd edition.

 

 

I will beg to differ on your pt #3. In part due to your pt #4, I have had 100s of games that depended on the flip of the card. Granted, their whole force does not normally move before you can react (as in I-go/you-go games), but in close games getting that one troop to move BEFORE your opponent can move his one critical troop has been the key to win/loss in many, many of the games that I have played.

 

Other than that, your points are spot on!!!

[Ddot]

Not to argue your point, but sometimes it can work the other way too. You look doomed and then the flip works in your favor and you turn things around. It doesn't happen in other games. Also, not accounting for Tact and Spy (and even accounting for them to one degree or another), you can "count the cards" and get an idea of the odds on getting the next flip.

*As opposed to knowing the oppostion will get their turn(s) to simply roll you to the best of their ability.

[spiritual_exorcist]

Not to mention that you can construct any army to play towards initiative if you find it to be vastly important.

 

Not to argue your point, but sometimes it can work the other way too. You look doomed and then the flip works in your favor and you turn things around. It doesn't happen in other games. Also, not accounting for Tact and Spy (and even accounting for them to one degree or another), you can "count the cards" and get an idea of the odds on getting the next flip.

*As opposed to knowing the oppostion will get their turn(s) to simply roll you to the best of their ability.

[cerebro1974]

LOL< I thought this was about 2nd Ed DnD!

[herzogbrian]

LOL< I thought this was about 2nd Ed DnD!

 

Sadly, you are not alone.

[spiritual_exorcist]

One thing I would also like to point out is that there are a vastly superior array of Special abilities in 2nd edition Warlord that allow units to do all sorts of things they couldn't do in first edition; and in having access to these SA units could be made more flavourful and were given abilities that really characterise how the developers wanter them to feel and perform on the battlefield. First edition play cannot even come close to mimicking some of the fantastic manuevers and tactics that cen be used in 2nd edition.

 

I suggest that if you can find a local veteran player in your area (some areas are much easier than others) you hook up with them and try the game out.

 

I just received my copy of the new second edition...(not the Savage North but the base book)

 

Are there campaign rules in the Savage North?

Are the loot rules in the Savage North?

Are the build of custom character rules in the Savage North?

 

I'm kinda feeling a bit ripped off. The rules are stripped down, there are no color photos.

 

I know it was only 20 bucks but the first edition was only 24.95...huge completeness and quality disparity between the two IMHO. Not to mention organization is screwy. The faction descriptions are in the front and the faction stats are all in the back.

 

I gotta say I'm pretty disappointed with the book.