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Dude, I think you're overreacting as much as the wild feminists you target.

 

I'm not targetting feminist. Calling these people feminists is an insult to feminists. These are like the lazy-do-nothing cousins of feminists. Feminists concern themselves with real issues, like equal pay for women and domestic violence. These people prefer easier targets.

 

I find that most people can be pleased simply by giving females similar positions of power and semi-reasonable armor. Klocke usually succseeds at this, which is why I love his minis.

 

Um, dude, Werner Klocke, bless his heart, is one of the worst offenders out there. There's a reason the klockenbooty tag exists.

 

In the case of the Cloud Giant, I'm mostly disappointed that it isn't standing upright. The armor is reasonable for the fluff. The pose isn't sexist in the least, just a bit annoying to people like me who would rather have someone in a more generic pose. It happens to be easier to sell and attractive model that isn't in a suggestive pose or the like. Better to have no complainers then 50.

 

Given that there are several companies that exist only to sell suggestive models, and zero companies that exist only to sell politically correct models, I'd put money on the proposition that it is not easier to sell an attractive model that isn't in a suggestive pose or the like. But more importantly: You'll never have no complainers. There will always exist a cadre of people who react to their own lack of creativity by attacking and trying to tear down other people's creativity. That some of them wrap themselves up in a flag and claim to speak from some moral authority doesn't change the basic facts: Whiners like to whine.

 

Basicly, what I'm geting at is that females can be attractive AND combatant, competent, and realistic (as in no implants, not that some things can't be fantastical) . Seriously, it's worth it.

 

I never suggested otherwise, did I? No, what I'm saying is that if you spend enough time on any gaming forum, you will eventually hear the clarion call of the Irate Psuedofeminist, decrying stripper poses, boob windows and bare midriffs - whether it be in miniatures or in gamebook art -- and demanding a change. But there is no point in trying to change for them, because their complaints are empty. They complain to hear themselves complain, not because their objections are actually preventing them from participating or (most importantly) purchasing. So changing to satisfy them will accomplish nothing. They can never be satisfied and will always find objections -- I mentioned that Astrid's Parlor thread on the WOTC forums. You can find plenty of examples of people complaining about WOTC art, having those complaints addressed and rebutted, only for the complainers to change the topic to pin-up art sold through Heavy Metal Magazine as if it were WOTC's official D&D art.

 

Here's another way of looking at it: Back in the 80's some extreme evangelical Christians took offense to D&D and accused it of harming kids, corrupting society, and promoting the worship of Satan. Meanwhile, many far more level-headed Christians recognized that is was just a game, and some were actually playing it! (Heck, one of my first gaming groups met in a church!). What TSR should have done is ignored these loons, but instead TSR responded by removing all mention of devils and demons from the game (and thus we got the abominations that were tanari and baazatu, or whatever they were - I just kept calling them demons and devils), and toning down a lot of the more heavy metal elements of the game. Gone were naked chicks bound on altars, in were tame pictures of old warriors regaling taverns with tales of adventure and wizards throwing rainbows at people.

 

Did a lot of extreme evangelical Christians start playing D&D? No. Did they stop calling D&D satanic and evil? No. Did the D&D fanbase think the whole move was stupid and lame? Yes. Even the Christians who were D&D fans? Yes, even they thought The Ta'nari Debacle was stupid.

 

What I'm saying is that these people,these psuedofeminist whiners, these people who look at that storm giant and think "ugh! stripper pose! must post to complain!" are just as unreasonable and obnoxious as those extreme evangelical types, and paying attention to them is just giving them what they want.

 

So, you know, ignore them.

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I'll tell you the story that popped into my mind the very instant I saw that concept art. It was like a key that unlocked a door, and I got a peek beyond.   I would only ever use this miniature onc

I disagree. I think it's a perfect gaming pose precisely because it's a poor traditional gaming pose. If I put that on the table, people will crack jokes.   8 rounds later when half the party is o

We already sort of do that, except instead of a bagpipe we just fill a kobold up with beans and squeeze 'im.   Also, kilts are not pants so I'll bring that to our leader. Which is me. You'd think

See, the problem is you're NOT ignoring them. You're posting a multi-page rant about them. That's the opposite of ignoring them. And that's completely fine. If you like railing against other people's opinions about miniatures (toys, a piece of silly fun, honestly), just be prepared to be assailed by those opinions. It's the way of things. If you don't like reading what they have to say, then take your own advice and ignore them. It's the only way you can avoid writing verbose diatribes on the subject.

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My recollection was that the pledging went up like crazy on the reveal of the concept art for the cloud/storm giants, so plenty of people liked the concept art as is. I am ecstatic to see the sculpt posted before the pledge manager became active because I had doubts as to whether the 3-d sculpt would capture the essence of the 2-d drawing. The sculpt looks awesome.

 

For those of you complaining that this fig does not look threatening enough, I put to you that appropriate basing is all that is required to set the desired level of intimidation and fear at the table with this mini. The base for that sculpt simply needs a prone player character figure getting its chest crushed under the heal of her left foot while she is "negotiating" the situation with the other player characters before her, all the while leaning into that leg to increase the pressure and burst the prone PC's innards. With 200 some odd human size figs in the bones collection, there are plenty of options for who the unlucky sot is whose getting his sternum driven into his spine.

 

Special attack foot stomp and hold with ongoing damage until hold is broken. The PCs will take this serious. ::P:

 

One of the great things about the vampire minis is that they are cheap enough that you can economically use a medium size figure as basing material for a giant size figure. :poke:

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See, the problem is you're NOT ignoring them. You're posting a multi-page rant about them.

 

I'm posting on page 11 of a completely pointless and fruitless thread spawned by a troll to explain the futility of it all. Because clearly, if this non-discussion can reach 11 pages, then some people don't realize they've been trolled.

 

And you'll note I'm not talking to the OP. I'm not engaging in the debate. Because its stupid, boring and leads nowhere. So, yes, I am ignoring them.

 

And that's completely fine. If you like railing against other people's opinions about miniatures (toys, a piece of silly fun, honestly),

 

You are seriously misreading me. What I like is not having people turn my hobby -- which, as we clearly both agree, is just a silly piece of fun -- into a political hobbyhorse so they can flog the same tired culture war nonsense they've been flogging for the last forty years. Listening to these people isn't going to improve anything -- the quality of the games, the quality of the sculpts, the number of people playing -- it's just going to feed their sense of self-importance.

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For those of you complaining that this fig does not look threatening enough, I put to you that appropriate basing is all that is required to set the desired level of intimidation and fear at the table with this mini. The base for that sculpt simply needs a prone player character figure getting its chest crushed under the heal of her left foot while she is "negotiating" the situation with the other player characters before her, all the while leaning into that leg to increase the pressure and burst the prone PC's innards. With 200 some odd human size figs in the bones collection, there are plenty of options for who the unlucky sot is whose getting his sternum driven into his spine.

 

I nominate this guy.

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And no one in the history of the gaming industry (which, it should be pointed out, has a long history of bending over backwards to try to appease this crowd) has ever made money trying to appeal to them (see the publishing history of the Blue Rose RPG for the sales disaster that resulted from trying to make a game that appeals to these folks).

 

There are people who way overreact about the objectification of women in geekdom. There is absolutely some objectification of women in geekdom that is problematic and you don't need to be a reactionary to see. I'm not going to comment much beyond that as I'm as conflicted as the hobby - I decry some of it, yet I also buy and paint cheesecake figures.

 

I don't see Blue Rose as being some attempt to cater only to the reactionary set. I thought it was a very interesting game setting, with lovely, evocative art. I bought it, and if I someday have a game group that would be suited to playing it, I will be very happy! It also happens something that might appeal to people looking for a little less traditionally testerone-driven than a lot of game stuff, but there are lots of other people it might appeal to. It seems like it would serve a number of underserved interest groups. And it is far, far from the niche RPG product line that failed to light the world on fire, so I think to point to it as an egregious example of bad sales because it didn't feature cheesecake is disingenous at best.

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I don't see Blue Rose as being some attempt to cater only to the reactionary set.

 

It was very much pushed as an alternative to D&D, and by alternative I mean a "feminist" alternative. The setting was based on the works of a bunch of 70's feminist sci-fi writers. Who else was it supposed to be catering too? Look at how you describe it:

 

It also happens something that might appeal to people looking for a little less traditionally testerone-driven than a lot of game stuff, but there are lots of other people it might appeal to. It seems like it would serve a number of underserved interest groups. And it is far, far from the niche RPG product line that failed to light the world on fire, so I think to point to it as an egregious example of bad sales because it didn't feature cheesecake is disingenous at best.

 

My point was that the people making the sort of complaints that can only be addressed by turning every game (or miniature line) into Blue Rose do not compose a significant enough share of the market to even be worth marketing to, not that Blue Rose failed because it had no cheesecake.

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Most RPGs are pushed as either just the 'stuff you like about D&D and none of the stuff you don't', or something that is in some significant way alternative to D&D. Lots of both types fail to achieve significant market share. I'd wager that more RPGs have been published and failed to develop or sustain enough popularity to survive than have succeeded.

 

Your original post explained at some length that you had some understanding of the issues that this group of people raises, but you feel that their standards and demands are impossible to meet, and that a great many of these people seem like all they really want to do is whine and moan. Certainly I have come across people who behave like that, and I understand your unhappiness with them.

 

My issue is with you dismissing an interesting game that does indeed offer an alternative to D&D and generic fantasy, as something created purely to appeal the above group of people, and thus an obvious waste of time and effort. You're tarring it with the same 'feminist' in quotes brush that you used when describing that group of people, and I'm objecting to that. It has feminist elements in the sense of women being equal partners in the society depicted and the artwork refraining from overtly sexualizing women (or men). It has a whole lot of other interesting elements, as well.

 

I suspect that it floundered on the vine in part because lots of people like me who liked it couldn't find enough people to play it with. I feel pretty confident that's the same reason plenty of other alternative games aimed at completely different markets also don't get very far. The success of something like Mouseguard is much more the exception than the rule.

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Well, for my part I'm strenuously opposed to the objectification of goblins. We are not merely meat-stops for your blades and maces! We're a proud and noble race of nosepickers with an ancient and splendorous history. Our culture is rich in the musical fruits and in the fantastic (if temporary) field of mud sculpture. Our children are blessed with a robust education system that covers the three R's - raiding, revenging, and running away!

 

I'm sick of being stereotyped!

 

I'm sick of being hunted by bored adventurers!

 

And most of all, I'm sick of being forced to wear pants!

 

 

*RrrriiiiiPPPPPP*

 

Now who wants to paint me?!

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The success of something like Mouseguard is much more the exception than the rule.

 

There's a lot of games like it (which is to say that, in various ways, they aren't D&D) that succeed at an "indie" level. But D&D and similar games have that boardgamey feel that people are comfortable with.

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For those of you complaining that this fig does not look threatening enough, I put to you that appropriate basing is all that is required to set the desired level of intimidation and fear at the table with this mini. The base for that sculpt simply needs a prone player character figure getting its chest crushed under the heal of her left foot while she is "negotiating" the situation with the other player characters before her, all the while leaning into that leg to increase the pressure and burst the prone PC's innards. With 200 some odd human size figs in the bones collection, there are plenty of options for who the unlucky sot is whose getting his sternum driven into his spine.

 

I nominate this guy.

 

That one would be good. The story behing how Sir Badluckalot got peppered with arrows and managed to have a giant standing on his chest should be interesting. ::D:

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