international dont get the paint sets until march?

[Seamus]

I'm not going to complain about it, but I would like to see someone from Reaper come on here and officially confirm it before I finalise my order.

I had been planning to get quite a lot of paints this way and use them to also paint some other products that will be arriving in November or so, and wouldn't mind paying an extra few bucks to get them in time for that. If that's not possible, I might end up getting paints from elsewhere, so I'm not sure if I'd still need these.

[Ampersandrew]

$25 dollars to ship an Insane amount of stuff internationally is unbelievably good value.

 

I'm disappointed that I'm not getting my paint 'til March, but I've ordered the first four learn to pit kits, so I'll survive.

 

What I am annoyed at is that Reaper didn't even bother to tell us. All along they've been saying paints and Sophie get shipped in September. I can understand that it's going to cost them a lot and as I'm typing this I've decided I don't want them to ship it now. But, FFS Reaper tell us about it. Wondering WTF is going on and stumbling across it on the forums is not cool.

[Qwyksilver]

Kit posted it elsewhere on the forum. I don't have the link handy.

[Nocturne]

Kit's confirmation on international shipping being one package only is here:

 

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?/topic/45913-missing-something-with-pledge-manager/page__st__15__p__638525#entry638525

[Seamus]

Thanks for the link, I thought I'd read all the KS related threads, missed that post somehow. :)

[ObsidianCrane]

I am disappointed that this wasn't announced with the other changes.

[Shogun]

I'm in canada so i could have my paints early, I chose not to because getting one big box is going to be AWESOME

[GentleGiant]

Well, I'm going to b*tch about it. It hasn't been mentioned before, Reaper has written updates about about spinning up the paint machines to ship out the paint as quickly as possible, still nothing about international customers not being able to get it shipped at the same time as those in the US at that time either.

In fact, it's a change after the products have been paid for (Amazon has already drawn the pledged amount) - so it's a breach of the sales contract, which means that the seller has to eat any extra unforseen costs, at least in my country they have to and I have a suspicion it might be so in the US too.

I (or we, as we're a bunch of people who have made one big pledge) have already paid for the product and the information, right up to the point of payment and after, has continuously been that the paint and the Sophie miniature (if one doesn't deselect it) would be shipped in October. That's the service we paid for and bought.

We raised 3 million dollars for Reaper, now they have to fulfill the contract of the Kickstarter, which includes shipping paint and Sophie figures now, not in March (unless you elect to wait, voluntarily).

We planned to get the paint and start painting other minis while waiting for the big shipment in March. That's why we pledged money for the paint. That's what we want and what was promised all throughout, and after, the entire Kickstart.

Sorry Reaper, if it costs you extra money, that's something you should have figured into the Kickstarter. You can't just come here afterwards and change that and say "whoops" - that's utter bullsh*t.

We have been exceedingly gracious to you by raising such a huge amount, the least we should be able to expect is for you to honor the deal.

[Slendertroll]

@GentleGiant: Too bad Kickstarter doesn't qualify as a real contract. There's another thread here dealing with exactly what your pledge qualifies as, but it's pretty definitively not a preorder. At least you're getting what you paid for, if not when. This is far from the most egregious disparity between what was promised in a Kickstarter and what was delivered. Heck, this is far from the worst example of delay, even.

[GentleGiant]

@GentleGiant: Too bad Kickstarter doesn't qualify as a real contract. There's another thread here dealing with exactly what your pledge qualifies as, but it's pretty definitively not a preorder. At least you're getting what you paid for, if not when. This is far from the most egregious disparity between what was promised in a Kickstarter and what was delivered. Heck, this is far from the worst example of delay, even.

What other Kickstarts have or have not done or promised is inconsequential to this Kickstarter. "Well, others have done it too" isn't a valid defense in breaking a contract.

A promise of a product, at a specific time, already paid for by the buyer, is a sales contract - even if you don't sign an "actual contract."

Without this basic understanding of commerce, trading would be thrown into complete chaos and you'd have no recourse against anyone.

The buyer isn't liable for any things that deviate from the original contract, that's entirely on the shoulders on the seller (unless specified in an actual contract). So, either Reaper has to fulfill their promise in the Kickstarter (ship all paints and Sophie figures now instead of March) or we're entitled to some other kind of rebate/discount/refund to cover that inconvenience.

Again, if you set something up for sale and then figure out that you would actually lose money for it, tough. That's part of doing business and you should have calculated your numbers more thoroughly before you offered said something up for sale. Excusing it with "well, it's Kickstarter, it's different" isn't valid. Especially if you take the time to read Kickstarter's page, where this is easy to find:

 

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

 

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

 

And Reaper posted an update saying this:

 

Just so you know we are not slouches here at Reaper. We have started casting up the Sophie models and started bottling paint so we can start shipping as soon as we have some information to ship against. So, we should be able to get a significant portion of the first shipments out this month as we planned. We are sure things will probably bleed over a bit into October, but we won’t be too far behind schedule!

[Pingo]

In Kickstarter as I understand it (and IANAL), pledgers are not technically "buyers" and receipt of rewards for pledging is not a "sales contract," although to be fair I don't actually know the legal ins and outs and I gather there is considerable room for interpretation.

 

Although Kickstarter encourages projects to fulfill rewards, I cannot see where they say this must be on a set schedule. Given that Reaper has been overall very clear about what it is doing and providing and has a track record for fairness, meeting its obligations, and good customer service, it is not at all clear that it fits the sort of bad-faith behavior which that Kickstarter policy was created to address.

 

Furthermore, if one is receiving goods at a steep discount, in an area of the world where every package shipped has a high cost, for a price far below what one could possibly get them under any other circumstance, it seems ungracious to demand two separate shipments, one for a fairly small package that will still double shipping costs.

 

The Reaper Kickstarter is a fabulous deal. Surely it is better to be grateful for that than try to grab for more for one's own convenience but at a terrible expense.

[recruittons]

It doesn't require them to deliver anything on the specified delivery date, that is why it is written "Estimated Delivery Date" not "Promised Delivery Date". This language is carefully chosen to prevent people who have unforeseen issues from then being liable for taking longer than anticipated. Reaper is only, and only can be, obliged to provide the contents of the pledge levels people paid for during the kickstarter (and afterwards in this case).

 

I lifted this directly from the Terms of Use:

 

The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.

 

Another interesting tidbit:

 

Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.

[ObsidianCrane]

Pingo you are incorrect about contract law.

 

My only issue remains that this is the one change we found out about indirectly.

 

For me it just means those 2 learn to paint kits I want will get purchased sooner not later.

[Pingo]

Pingo you are incorrect about contract law.

 

My only issue remains that this is the one change we found out about indirectly.

 

For me it just means those 2 learn to paint kits I want will get purchased sooner not later.

 

Thank you, and my apologies. I'll go edit that part out so as not to spread misinformation.

[GentleGiant]

Actually, if one does not sign an "actual contract" there is no contract. I believe that is a matter of the law.

 

In Kickstarter as I understand it (and IANAL), pledgers are not "buyers" and receipt of rewards for pledging is not a "sales contract." That I believe is also a matter of the law, although I gather there is considerable room for interpretation.

It's basic contract law. Exchange x amount of money for y product, delivered at z time (usually immediately in case of over the counter products in a store).

 

 

Although Kickstarter encourages projects to fulfill rewards, I cannot see where they say this must be on a set schedule. Given that Reaper has been overall very clear about what it is doing and providing and has a track record for fairness, meeting its obligations, and good customer service, it is not at all clear that it fits the sort of bad-faith behavior which that Kickstarter policy was created to address as a last resort.

I'm not accusing Reaper of any kind of bad faith behaviour. I'm sorry to hear that they have miscalculated the shipping costs. However, that's, to put it bluntly, not my problem. That's their accountant's (or whoever did the calculations) problem and thus ultimately the company's problem. They have the products, so it's not for a lack of being able to fulfill the part of the deal for international customers.

 

Furthermore, if one is receiving goods at a steep discount, in an area of the world where every package shipped has a high cost, for a price far below what one could possibly get them under any other circumstance, it seems ungracious to demand two separate shipments, one for a fairly small package that will still double shipping costs.

 

The Reaper Kickstarter is a fabulous deal. Surely it is better to be grateful for that than try to grab for more for one's own convenience but at a terrible expense.

Why should I be grateful for Reaper not holding up their end of the deal? They turn a huge profit over this (how else can they afford to invest in new equipment to move the production to Texas?). They should be able to fulfill the deal they made with everyone.

And, again, all you just listed here they should have taken into account before they put up the Kickstarter!

Why do I have to be inconvenienced by the fact that they didn't? Especially when they actually CAN fulfill that part, but won't because their profit won't be as high.

 

It doesn't require them to deliver anything on the specified delivery date, that is why it is written "Estimated Delivery Date" not "Promised Delivery Date". This language is carefully chosen to prevent people who have unforeseen issues from then being liable for taking longer than anticipated. Reaper is only, and only can be, obliged to provide the contents of the pledge levels people paid for during the kickstarter (and afterwards in this case).

Except they are fulfilling this specific part for US customers, at the time they have promised in the Updates, so they are able to provide the contents of the pledge levels.