smokingwreckage Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 If we are to continue, we need to define fair. Is "fair" equal procedural treatment? If so, any international backer is going to get unfair disadvantages or advantages, since domestic and international logistics - which is NOT to say "price of postage - are different. Given exactly equal procedures, international backers won't get their packages at all. Or is "fair" equal final outcomes? If we commit to exactly equal outcomes, we have to overcome natural disadvantages, but also natural advantages. Have to wait until 2014 to get through customs at the airport in Vladivostok? Well then, people who live literally over the road from Reaper must not be permitted to cross the street to pick up their order. Follow me so far? These are extreme examples, which brings me to the next two, divergent points in my argument: 1. In reality most people expect reasonable rather than absolute fairness. Therefore the argument must be that Reaper is being unreasonably unfair. 2. Nobody has a consistent and non-contradictory definition of fairness, since equal outcomes demand unequal in other words privileged treatment, and equal treatment yields unequal in other words unfair outcomes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artists Wren Posted October 3, 2012 Artists Share Posted October 3, 2012 Gentle Giant - I think the biggest issue you have right now is wanting to know exactly what the process is so you can complete your RPM selections. The thread has gone on a couple of days since then, if you're still waiting I would recommend emailing Reaper to get your definite answer so you can move on. (You could recommend that someone come and share that information here in the thread and on the Kickstarter comments for the other international pledgers who are in the same position.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caffiene Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Is "fair" equal procedural treatment? If so, any international backer is going to get unfair disadvantages or advantages, since domestic and international logistics - which is NOT to say "price of postage - are different. Given exactly equal procedures, international backers won't get their packages at all. I think thats a bit silly. Your post hinges on "which is not to say price of postage" but you dont give any basis for that exclusion. All that is required is a step in the hypothetical procedure that (roughly speaking) says something to the effect of "put an amount of extra effort into necessary paperwork and handling that is proportional to the amount paid for shipping". Covers both international and domestic logistics (some versus none) with the same identical procedure. The "exactly equal procedures" bit is just an oversimplification of the process... You could equally say that the "procedure" for one customer says to ship to a specific address in a specific US state and therefore given exactly equal procedure the whole thing is broken and only one person would receive their package at all. Its not helpful to the discussion to give unrealistic definitions of "exactly" equal. (For the record Im accepting, if disappointed, about the shipping. I upped my pledge from a planned 2 paint sets to 3 after knowing about the late shipping... I just feel the argument doesnt support the position very well, not necessarily that the position itself is bad.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smokingwreckage Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Caffeine, you almost have me. I can see people being disappointed and upset, I'm just trying to point out that sometimes our expectations are too high, or even contradictory. My addition of "not to say cost of postage" is to: Indicate that I am aware that cost of postage is considered a settled issue and has been addressed. Indicate that logistics means a bit more than cost of a box and postage stamp. My exaggeration of exactly equal procedure is to illustrate that nobody could realistically hold to rigid, absolutes of strict fairness. This is intended not as a put-down but to demonstrate my later point on reasonableness, and my other point on the innate contradiction in the usual intuition of fair. Mostly we want equal treatment AND equal outcomes, but the more diversity we see in circumstances the more divergent equal procedure and equal outcome become. As such, nothing hinges on my hat-tip to the earlier resolution (or non-resolution, as the case may be) of the postage issue. My points are limited and academic. If Reaper can ship faster, I'm sure they will. If they can't, they can't. It will have to do with a variety of factors they are dealing with and we aren't, and academic points on expectations of fairness will have no bearing on that. I do think that introspection is good for the soul, however. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwyksilver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Reaper made a business decision based on logistics. Yes it is unfortunate some people will be upset. To even pretend to be second class citizens is absurd because you have to wait for something. You live farther away away. Your shipping is more expensive both financially and in terms of man hours labor. Kit has already confirmed the large majority of backers are Stateside. This isn't about fair. This is a business decision. Fair doesn't belong. This is pure bean counting. I know the folks there. I have no doubt they hated making the decision. A decision still had to be made. Multiple US/Canuckistan members have already offered to forgo their early paints to help out their foreign allies in the war against naked metal and plastics. Second class citizens would have been ignored by Reaper. Would have been ignored by this community. Would have had zero offers of assist and support. You're not second class. You're further away. Long distance relationships always suck. Resolution is available. This thread has carried on pages past the asked and answered stage. Can we just move on? Specific issues should be brought up directly with the appropriate Reaper staff. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ampersandrew Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Can we just move on? Specific issues should be brought up directly with the appropriate Reaper staff. This. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentleGiant Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Second class citizens would have been ignored by Reaper. Would have been ignored by this community. Would have had zero offers of assist and support. You're not second class. You're further away. Long distance relationships always suck. You obviously haven't read the comments to the two updates (#69 #70) either. Resolution is available. This thread has carried on pages past the asked and answered stage. Can we just move on? Specific issues should be brought up directly with the appropriate Reaper staff. Feel free to move on, no one is forcing you to read or comment to any of this. I'm still uncertain what Reaper's plan is, since Ed Pugh's comment can be interpreted two ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exwilly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 then contact reaper directly gentle giant. also you have to remember they are also processing orders from customers also. and alot have been buying learn to paint kits which has 8-9 bottles of paint( and 2 minis a booklet and a brush) available from reaper now. not to mention all the normal things it takes to run a business. and if its not international its us in the U.S. screaming mememememememememe. it is starting to get old. and i can see where international is mad though just read the shipment info tab before Mr. Pugh's statment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwyksilver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 [email protected] USE IT IF YOU WANT AN ANSWER. (940) 484-6464 USE IT IF YOU WANT AN ANSWER. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyberwolfe1 Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Might just have to test how good are 10 - 15 year old bottles of paint. If they are the old white top rubber plug bottles then you'll be good as gold. Those paints never die. I have made no such accusations, that's a strawman argument and I'd like you to refrain from doing so. How very political of you. You're right you didn't exactly say those words. However, one can infer, by your continued persistence of this subject, you must think something is afoot. A plot? A conspiracy? U.S. xenophobia and hatred towards non-Americans? Who knows? As I and others have said, you have nothing more to gain by pursuing it in an open forum. Unless you enjoy being alienated. Then by all means forge on! The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Thank you Spock. I'm simply standing up for someone who is getting unreasonably attacked. Really? Most of the posts to GG has been pointing out he is complaining about something that is not likely to change. A position which is not unreasonable. Furthermore I believe many people on this thread have been fairly long-suffering about his diatribe that has no end. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matbar Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 You obviously haven't read the comments to the two updates (#69 #70) either. Why do you keep bringing this up? People on this board aren't attacking you by saying you've taken this well past the point of a legitimate Q&A and into beating a dead horse. Those updates have jack all to do with this board. Even with no data to support the theory, I feel safe in saying I'm sure not every one of those 17K+ backers posts here. You said yesterday you weren't going to keep explaining it, yet can't seem to resist doing so while simultaneously questioning the reading comprehension of anyone who doesn't agree with you. That's a disparaging remark. No matter how you try to dress it up, you are calling people stupid in such a way that you can then pretend you're not doing it if someone calls you on it. Let me break it down for you. We understand, we just think you are attempting to use a flawed line of reasoning to make it sound like you are a martyr for the cause of downtrodden international masses, and not just an unsuccessful rabble rouser. Calling attention to some nastiness in a couple of KS update pages doesn't mean posters on this board have atttacked you. That would be like me saying I think you're a jerk because Hitler was a German, which is a country not in the U.S. and nevermind you are Canadian, you're a foreigner and that's the same thing. It's a completely nonsensical piece of reasoning. The truth is YOU DO have a legitimate question, very few HERE have actually said otherwise. But your issue has been addressed to some point, and you have options to contact Reaper if that is not enough for you. They have made themselves available to discuss it. By refusing to do so via the appropriate channels and spending your time instead here, tilting at windmills, you have chosen not to have the issue resolved. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buglips*the*goblin Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwyksilver Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 Buglips if you want to come in you have to do the truffle shuffle! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recruittons Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJ-X7FmoMM Anybody who watches this... I'm sorry... but I'm really not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exwilly Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJ-X7FmoMM Anybody who watches this... I'm sorry... but I'm really not at least it aint fridayfriday. and can you say emo boyband. and buglips it should be goblins and trolls just want to have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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