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CAV: SO and New Figures


CAVBOSS
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For me I will stick to the metal and bigger size, but I do see an up side to this. It may help bring down CAV prices on eBay. It is not my only source, I have purchased 6 or 7 companies of new. But a lot of the prices on eBay are store prices and higher, one listing wanted $24 for a Kraken. On the other hand you will find the rare one like duhengeering starting prices at $.99, yes I said 99 cents. So time will tell and I will probably max out long before they are gone. . . maybe. :o}

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For me I will stick to the metal and bigger size, but I do see an up side to this. It may help bring down CAV prices on eBay. It is not my only source, I have purchased 6 or 7 companies of new. But a lot of the prices on eBay are store prices and higher, one listing wanted $24 for a Kraken. On the other hand you will find the rare one like duhengeering starting prices at $.99, yes I said 99 cents. So time will tell and I will probably max out long before they are gone. . . maybe. :o}

Correct me if I'm wrong CAVBoss, but the size of the CAVs aren't changing when they are made in plastic. Some of the vees were originally not in the correct scale, mainly due to price point as I understand it. Hopefully now that we can go the plastic route we can see everything in the correct 10mm scale.

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This is news I'm torn on, but primarily positive about. As long as they still feel like 'mechs [meaning they feel meaty], I'm on board...as my only 'downside' is my own nostalgia for big, heavy, metal 'Mechs.

 

On one hand...the sheer price of 'mechs from any company [CAV, BT, etc] is what keeps me from having boxes upon boxes upon boxes of the things...I'm a big stompy robot junkie at heart. At $10-$17 a figure, that hurts the wallet in a hurry...and I get the feeling is one of the reasons CAV wasn't really adopted in large numbers, as even for a 4-on-4 you're out ~$50 per player.

 

On another: please, please, PLEASE say the pegs are universal fit / interchangeable. Kitbash heaven!

 

On a third: If the plastics become boneyard fodder, it'll make my one diorama project a lot cheaper to pull off. I need 26 torsos plus a ton of other pieces, and haven't had the cash to do it in metal yet.

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Hmm... Interesting...

 

The larger monsters in the Bones line are $2.50 (Ogre Chieftan) to $3.50 (Minotaur), at those prices and that weight (cheaper shipping) that is very attractive. The only thing missing is a CAV Bones Kickstarter... But please wait a bit before launching the thing untill we've all got the Bones in from the first KS ;-)

 

I'm also a bit confused, I've been following CAV for a year or eleven and at the time the Mecha were 1/160, most of the vehicles were out of scale. At some time some vehicles got 'true scaled' to 1/160. That's when I kind of last track of CAV... I saw that the Mechs from the Talon Games line were incorporated into the CAV line called CAV: Strike Operations. Did I understand things correctly that some older CAVS got smaller versions made, or did I misunderstand something?

 

If the change from 1/160 to 1/180 is only a 'paper' change does that mean that the CAV Mecha and vehicles are getting taller in the CAV:SO fluff? And the minis are staying the same size as the 1/160 CAV minis? How tall are these plastic CAVs going to be? I know that the old Talon Games Mecha fit in pretty well with Battletech and Mekton minis, are the plastic CAV:SA mecha also goin to fit in with such minis?

 

Maybe a stupid question, but why the change to 1/180? No one is doing 1/180 terrain... With 10-12mm your indeed somewehre between 1/180 and 1/150, and unless your actually making the human infantry 10mm, 1/160 for 10-12mm sounds more reasonable. I'm seeing some 1/160 kits, a bit more 1/150 kits, 1/200 is well represented in the aircraft range, but 1/144 is extremely well represented in all ranges. 1/144 CAV would mean that players/moddelers/hobbyists have access to a wide range of terrain/buildings/civilians/vehicles to extend their collection of CAV. While a lot of 1/144 kits are relatively cheap, I suspect that very few kits can compete with Reaper on their pricing (of plastic), and honestly we would rather have cool CAV Mecha and vehicles then the booring 1/144 military vehicles. But Reaper doesn't have the resources to do everything, like terrain, civilians and civilian vehicles, so why force folks to the expensive garage specialty shops that doubtlesly pop up when you go with 1/180?

 

Not that I'm complaining mind you, just curious.

 

Honestly if the plastic CAVs fit in well with the BT minis I think there will be a rather large demand for the things if the pricing is right (as inline with the current Bones fantasy minis). I think the biggest hurdle of mainstreaming was the pain of the metal minis (and possibly the scarry sized main BT rulebook)...

Edited by Cergorach
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Based on conversations I've had with the powers that be, to the best of my knowledge the bulk of the actual CAV miniatures will not be re-sized. I in no way represent Reaper though so I could be off.

That still leaves me with the question which will and which way (bigger or smaller)?

 

Is that 29' tall Dictator (in CAV 1&2) going to be 32,6235' tall in CAV: Strike Operations? But the same size mini it is now (or was)?

 

On the Reaper store page for CAV: SO I'm only seeing the 'tiny' vehicles, instead of the larger 'true scale' vehicles, does that mean that the vehicles will be even more out of scale with the CAV Mecha? If that is true, why? I could fathom that in the past it was due to cost of metal, but plastic is so cheap it shouldn't be a factor. Maybe bigger vehicles means higher mold costs? Or is this just a way to make the CAVs Mecha and vehicles compatible with Battletech (I can understand that, it's a ready made market that is looking for cheap alternatives)...

 

The more I look at things, the more confused I'm getting...

Edited by Cergorach
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Argh...the dreaded scale debate! ;-)

 

Directly from the ruleset (and yes this changed from previous discussions):

 

"Models for CAV: SO are 1/180th (10-12 mm) figure scale, with each inch of the gaming surface representing approximately 15 feet (4.57 m)."

 

This doesn't make sense. 10-12mm miniature corresponds to 1/160 through about 1/140, Where the heck does 1/180th figure into this? 1/180 is smaller than 10mm or 12mm, clocking in at around 9mm.

 

Don't get me wrong, as a 10mm sci-fi gamer I love that the scale is staying a bit larger, but it might be good to start with correct scale measurements.

Edited by Eilif
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This doesn't make sense. 10-12mm miniature corresponds to 1/160 through about 1/140, Where the heck does 1/180th figure into this? 1/180 is smaller than 10mm or 12mm, clocking in at around 9mm.

 

Don't get me wrong, as a 10mm sci-fi gamer I love that the scale is staying a bit larger, but it might be good to start with correct scale measurements.

 

-- I think it is correct unless something has changed in how you figure scale. There is some back and forth with scale between how the British determine it but please feel free to correct my math if it is wrong. This is they way we have done it for over 20 years here at Reaper.

 

The average male figure is determined to be 6' tall (72 inches). This is 1/72 scale. To convert to metric you divide 72 by the number of mm you are using (in this case 10). 72/10=7.2. Then multiply this number by the number of mm in an inch (25). 7.2 x 25=180.

 

This works out for other scales such as:

6mm=1/300th

8mm=1/225th

10mm=1/180th

12mm=1/150th

15mm=1/120th

20mm=1/90th

25mm=1/72th

32mm=1/56th

That still leaves me with the question which will and which way (bigger or smaller)?

 

Is that 29' tall Dictator (in CAV 1&2) going to be 32,6235' tall in CAV: Strike Operations? But the same size mini it is now (or was)?

 

On the Reaper store page for CAV: SO I'm only seeing the 'tiny' vehicles, instead of the larger 'true scale' vehicles, does that mean that the vehicles will be even more out of scale with the CAV Mecha? If that is true, why? I could fathom that in the past it was due to cost of metal, but plastic is so cheap it shouldn't be a factor. Maybe bigger vehicles means higher mold costs? Or is this just a way to make the CAVs Mecha and vehicles compatible with Battletech (I can understand that, it's a ready made market that is looking for cheap alternatives)...

 

The more I look at things, the more confused I'm getting...

 

-- Im sorry for the confusion and I will do my best to try and sort it out. I tend to breed confusion in an effort to keep your attention away from my true plans!

 

Anyway...here is my problem...dozens of CAVs, vehicles, gunships, and infantry that do not have a consistent scale. I have to fix this problem with the least amount of effort and spending money. Im not going to rescuplt everything to get it all to shape up right. Ive measured mini after mini and 10mm makes the most sense with what I have.

 

The Dictator B measures 45mm from bottom of foot to top of "shoulder". That's the point we are measuring minis from, not to the top of a missile pod etc. At 10mm that makes the Dictator 27 feet tall. I think that's pretty close to where we want to be. Also of note, all the infantry are 10mm tall.

Excited about affordable CAVs, not so excited about 10mm, or near 10mm, scale vehicles. So, would 6mm figures look terribly out of place with CAV (given the smaller than 10mm currently exhibited by many of the miniatures)?

 

-- I promise you I own a lot of both. They look fine and will continue to do so. That the "other" mecha game out there is much closer to 8-10mm than to 6mm IMO.

 

--Based on conversations I've had with the powers that be, to the best of my knowledge the bulk of the actual CAV miniatures will not be re-sized. I in no way represent Reaper though so I could be off.

 

-- Correct...they are being resized only if they are too big IMO.

I'm confused now too. :unsure: I know there were announcements as to the scale everything was going, but I too, wonder if the Bones treatment wouldn't change things again. I hope the Reaper people think this through again if the costs work out.

 

-- Bone treatment changes material...it doesn't change what we have to work with. If I change the size of a mini I have to do it on our end, and there are too many now to do them all.

 

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Yeah AFAIK CBT doesn't actually have a consistent scale if you line the figures up, and several mechs etc have always been sculpted wildly out of scale in that line.

 

Honestly, if your opponent can eyeball you mech and say "To scale, that model is three feet higher than it ought to be, given the height of the model" then you're playing games with a machinist or toolmaker. Possibly a dentist. Anyone else who says they can spot it on the table without callipers is lying.

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This doesn't make sense. 10-12mm miniature corresponds to 1/160 through about 1/140, Where the heck does 1/180th figure into this? 1/180 is smaller than 10mm or 12mm, clocking in at around 9mm.

 

Don't get me wrong, as a 10mm sci-fi gamer I love that the scale is staying a bit larger, but it might be good to start with correct scale measurements.

 

-- I think it is correct unless something has changed in how you figure scale. There is some back and forth with scale between how the British determine it but please feel free to correct my math if it is wrong. This is they way we have done it for over 20 years here at Reaper.

 

The average male figure is determined to be 6' tall (72 inches). This is 1/72 scale. To convert to metric you divide 72 by the number of mm you are using (in this case 10). 72/10=7.2. Then multiply this number by the number of mm in an inch (25). 7.2 x 25=180.

 

This works out for other scales such as:

6mm=1/300th

8mm=1/225th

10mm=1/180th

12mm=1/150th

15mm=1/120th

20mm=1/90th

25mm=1/72th

32mm=1/56th

 

I'm not sure about your math, but those are not the numbers that have been used by wargamers for the last few decades. You're problem might be that in the figuring of wargames scales "mm" height is often figured to the eyeline rather than head top.

 

They're not not a perfect comparison (wargames miniatures rarely are), but here's what scales the rest of the world uses for the various common MM heights compared to fraction scales.

 

 

6mm= 1/300th or 1/285. Battletech, Microarmor,etc....

10mm= 1/160th (also known as N) Though some examples have ranged twoards 1/144 (about 11mm). At this small size they're pretty interchangeable. IIRC, CAV minis were originally sold as N

15mm= 1/100 Though technically 15mm should be a smidge smaller, this is very standard across 15mm makers these days thanks to FoW

20mm= 1/72 Again, not perfect (20mm is closer to 1/80th), but the one of the appeals of 20mm (usually metal miniatures) for many gamers is their relative compatibility with 1/72 armor, vehicles, terrain, etc.

25mm (rarely produced anymore)= 1/64. Definitely NOT 1/72. Put a 1/72 model soldier next to a 25mm wargaming miniature and you'll see what I mean.

28mm= 1/56th

Like I said, the accepted scale comparisons are not perfectly accurate, but It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to buck the norm when trying to get a new minis game on the market. Folks are going to look at 1:80th and say "what the heck?" and if you slap 10mm or 12mm alongside that scale it's going to cause some real confusion.

There's a dated, but fairly similar chart of scales here:

http://theminiaturespage.com/ref/scales.html

Edited by Eilif
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