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CAV: SO and New Figures

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I've made an attempt to make a distinction between hard, fixed, fractional scales (i.e. 1/100th, my favorite) and size "bands", like 15mm. They can be used interchangeably in certain circumstances, but the "mm" size bands provide too much slop. I'm one of those dial caliper type of guys. There's a lot of industry inertia out there, amongst most companies, to retain the "mm" size bands, since they provide so much leeway to scale creep and misproportion. Fractions and hard scales lock things in, or at least attempt to.

 

Your numbers are what I've used, Eilif, for a while. Great minds, and that... ;)

 

 

6mm= 1/300th or 1/285. Battletech, Microarmor,etc....

10mm= 1/160th (also known as N) Though some examples have ranged twoards 1/144 (about 11mm). At this small size they're pretty interchangeable. IIRC, CAV minis were originally sold as N

15mm= 1/100 Though technically 15mm should be a smidge smaller, this is very standard across 15mm makers these days thanks to FoW

20mm= 1/72 Again, not perfect (20mm is closer to 1/80th), but the one of the appeals of 20mm (usually metal miniatures) for many gamers is their relative compatibility with 1/72 armor, vehicles, terrain, etc.

25mm (rarely produced anymore)= 1/64. Definitely NOT 1/72. Put a 1/72 model soldier next to a 25mm wargaming miniature and you'll see what I mean.

28mm= 1/56th

Best,

JBR

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If the infantry, when standing upright, is 10mm from the bottom of the feet to the top of the head, then I would say, that's pretty much 1/180.

 

Things have been murky with 25mm, 28mm, 30mm, 32mm and the Heroic scales since a couple of decades. One scale lead into another. And it was certainly not consistent with height to the eyes. 6mm has had this issue, now 15mm also has this issue, or should I say 18mm (to the top of the head). A lot of the old 15mm figures are actually 15mm to the top of the head, and the newer '15mm' are actually closer to 18mm tall (and certainly not 15mm to the eyes). So to be honest, I don't care if it's 'to the eyes' or 'the top of the head', use a scale! Pick one! And stick to it! Is resculpting cost really an issue when a plastic mold is $18.000 to $45.000? If it's an issue, why not KS it? Weren't the CAV Mecha and vehicles made in 3D (files), that should make rescaling them relatively easy, just a matter of printing them out (and cleaning up the printing lines). Heck, some mold manufacturers prefer to work from 3D files rather then actual models...

 

Imho the Battletech scale inconsistency is one of those rather painful little things that annoys the crap out of me (and others). If you can nip it in the butt early, do so, because if you wait, it's going to bite you in the behind... It's just ridiculous when a scout mech towers over a 100 ton assault mech, folks who aren't familiar with the mechs assume that the bigger scout mech is the stronger opponent, it makes things confusing for new players.

 

And if I might ask, how will the 'Cris Lewis' Mecha fit in the CAV universe? While I love a lot of those designs (Halberd me! ;-), they don't feel like the previous CAV Mecha. I would still love to get them in cheap plastic though.

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-- And that's why you don't talk politics, religion or scale!

 

Anyway, I'm getting things to a consistent level that going forward will keep future releases in line with what we have.

 

As to fixing the whole line to bring everything to the same point, its a lot of wasted effort that could be better spent on other things. I would rather the use the resources available on new things for the future. I would imagine that all of your 9 mm, 10 mm, 12mm things (or 1/144, 1/160, or 1/180th) will look fine next to each other when playing a game.

 

As to the minis Chris and I did, they are being added to the universe as new CAVs with new manufacturers. You can only make so many blocks with two guns and two missile pods and its time for new design theories. I think if you look at a lot of the existing CAV figures you can find ones that have a lot of the same look and feel as some of these newer figures. I lot of the designs that were not released were already moving in that direction.

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In my opinion, scale is a small issue. I am more concerned with get the rules done and out there. Es the minis need to look good together snd not like someone slapped a 28mm in with 6 mm and called it good. Give me the rules and give me fluff. I wont take a ruler snd measure every bloody mini to see if the scale matches. There have been fluxes in most if not every line of minis. So in my opinion, we are burning Jons time on the rule book with the scale issue. I personally don't care if you want to field a True Scale mini with its underscaled counterpart, a Ghast is still a Ghast. I know there are those people who have to have all thier minis all the same scale and match just so, however my Ghasts will blow your CAVs to hell no matter what size they are. :)

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The newly [or do I mean most recently?] declared scale fits in just fine on my chart of approved scales:

Ground Distance Scale / Terrain & Buildings / Six Foot Tall Objects (like figures)

  • 1:1200 --- 1 inch equals 100 feet --- 1.5 mm soldiers
  • 1: 900 --- 1 inch equals 75 feet --- 2 mm soldiers
  • 1: 600 --- 1 inch equals 50 feet --- 3 mm soldiers
  • 1: 300 --- 1 inch equals 25 feet --- 6 mm soldiers
  • 1: 240 --- 1 inch equals 20 feet --- 7.5 mm soldiers
  • 1: 225 --- 1 inch equals 18.75 feet --- 8 mm soldiers
  • 1: 180 --- 1 inch equals 15 feet --- 10 mm soldiers
  • 1: 120 --- 1 inch equals 10 feet --- 15 mm soldiers
  • 1: 60 --- 1 inch equals 5 feet --- 30 mm soldiers
  • 1: 48 --- 1 inch equals 4 feet --- 37.5 mm soldiers

So I am totally good with it. Hooray Jon!

 

...but it might be good to start with correct scale measurements.

Sorry dude. Your math is off somewhere. Look at my humble little chart. Compare 1/180 with 1/900. They are related by a factor of 5 in all three categories. (1:900 is 1/5th the size of 1:180) Jon's math is spot on.

 

Is that 29' tall Dictator (in CAV 1&2) going to be 32.6235' tall in CAV: Strike Operations?

Yes, got it in one (although I did not check your math; so maybe the dictator is 33ft tall). Old sculpts never die / old stats cards are good kindling.

Seriously, do these mecha models have external features that reveal size or pin down a specific scale? I do not remember very many man-sized doors, ladder rungs, or even circular hatches. Most of them have cockpit windows sorta like aircraft. On aircraft the size and extent of cockpit glass can vary a lot and most importantly for this discussion it tells you nothing about the size of the pilot.

Consider two 1:1 models: Me-109 German fighter and an F-16C. Two single seat fighters. Tiny flat panes of glass on one; huge wrap around bubble on the other.

If someone has invested in lots of terrain built to some former scale I could see the fuss :huh: but if the revised scale means that your old mecha model is considered to be 5 or 6 feet taller, so what?

One more example from the world of aircraft, United States Navy F-18 Hornets:

 

320px-USMC_FA-18_Hornet.JPEGSuperHornet.jpg

Well guess what?

The plane on the left is only about 80% as big as the one on the right. They are both F-18s. Both 'Hornets'. But the one on the right is an E / F model. More wingspan, more fuel, bigger engines. Nominally the same aircraft type, the truth is it was a redesign from the runway up and it is significantly bigger than the little C/D model (click the link). But it looks almost the same.

 

So if it is troubling anyone that their Ghast or Dictator or other CAV model is suddenly, officially bigger... as if KodaWerks (or whoever) suddenly scaled up their design ... real life military contractors sometimes do that with real hardware.

 

Wrap your head around that.

Edited by TGP
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The newly [or do I mean most recently?] declared scale fits in just fine on my chart of approved scales:

 

Ground Distance Scale / Terrain & Buildings / Six Foot Tall Objects (like figures)

  • 1:1200 --- 1 inch equals 100 feet --- 1.5 mm soldiers
  • 1: 900 --- 1 inch equals 75 feet --- 2 mm soldiers
  • 1: 600 --- 1 inch equals 50 feet --- 3 mm soldiers
  • 1: 300 --- 1 inch equals 25 feet --- 6 mm soldiers
  • 1: 240 --- 1 inch equals 20 feet --- 7.5 mm soldiers
  • 1: 225 --- 1 inch equals 18.75 feet --- 8 mm soldiers
  • 1: 180 --- 1 inch equals 15 feet --- 10 mm soldiers
  • 1: 120 --- 1 inch equals 10 feet --- 15 mm soldiers
  • 1: 60 --- 1 inch equals 5 feet --- 30 mm soldiers
  • 1: 48 --- 1 inch equals 4 feet --- 37.5 mm soldiers

So I am totally good with it. Hooray Jon!

 

...but it might be good to start with correct scale measurements.

Sorry dude. Your math is off somewhere. Look at my humble little chart. Compare 1/180 with 1/900. They are related by a factor of 5 in all three categories. (1:900 is 1/5th the size of 1:180) Jon's math is spot on.

I never said the math is exactly right on mine, I said that the list is what nearly every other miniature producer is using. "MM" have always been an approximation but if you look around you'll see that it's fairly standard how they are labled and marketed. This is partly because of aproximation and partly because mm's are measured "to the eye" and not to the top of the head.

 

If somoene wants to use their own "approved scales" that's one thing, but I still maintain that it's silly to use a fractional scale that doesn't match up to what everyone else is doing. No one else is using 1/180 for 10mm or 1/120 for 15mm, so why start now?

 

Also, while the numbers I gave have mostly been rounded off by wargames companies, they are supported by math also. Here's the math explanation from the list I linked to earlier.

 

http://theminiaturespage.com/ref/scales.html

 

 

Converting Between Scale Types

To theoretically convert ratio scales into height scales - and assuming here that height scales measure to "eye height" while ratio scales measure to "head height" - divide 1610 by the scale. For example, 1/285 figures are pretty much the same scale as

1610 / 285 = 5.656mm figures.

The reverse is also true: to get ratio scale, divide 1610 by the height scale. Thus, 25mm figures are equivalent to

1610 / 25 = 64.41/64 scale (which is in spitting distance of 1/72 scale, another common scale).

This means that 15mm toy soldiers are probably about 16.5mm tall overall, which makes them closer to 1/110 scale than 1/120. N-gauge figures (1/160) are about 11.25mm tall to the top of the head, which makes them about 10mm scale toy soldiers.

Where does the Magic Number 1610 Come From?

To get the magic number, all you need to come up with the "eye height" of the average man, measured in millimeters. The number we use is 1610 mm (about 5' 3").

Why does the magic number work? Because equivalent height and ratio scales, multiplied, should always result in the same constant (our magic number). In the simplest case, we take real life - 1:1 ratio scale, eye height of 1610 mm - and multiply 1 x 1610 = 1610. Therefore, 1610 is the constant.

So what is the magic number for a manufacturer who measures height scale to top of the head, rather than to eye level? Simply the height of the average man in millimeters - 1730 (5' 8").

I'm not just making these numbers out of thin air. There are reasons why nearly everyone else is using the chart I listed including professional designers who love hard numbers like JBR (love your work man) and no one is using the chart you and CAVBOSS provided.

Lastly, I'm not doing this just to argue, I want CAV to be successful, but as Reaper learned in the past ("Heroic 25mm" anyone...) Sticking with labels gamers recognize is a very wise business decision.

Edited by Eilif

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I may be missing something here, but my main concern mentioned way back was not about scale change, but size change. I was wondering if the CAV models were going to be reduced to Battle Tech sizes rather than keeping them the size they are now?

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One more example from the world of aircraft, United States Navy F-18 Hornets:

 

320px-USMC_FA-18_Hornet.JPEGSuperHornet.jpg

Well guess what?

The plane on the left is only about 80% as big as the one on the right. They are both F-18s. Both 'Hornets'. But the one on the right is an E / F model. More wingspan, more fuel, bigger engines. Nominally the same aircraft type, the truth is it was a redesign from the runway up and it is significantly bigger than the little C/D model (click the link). But it looks almost the same.

 

So if it is troubling anyone that their Ghast or Dictator or other CAV model is suddenly, officially bigger... as if KodaWerks (or whoever) suddenly scaled up their design ... real life military contractors sometimes do that with real hardware.

 

Wrap your head around that.

 

There's a reason why one is called a Hornet and the other a Super Hornet, and it's not 20% bigger, depending on which dimension your looking at it's 4%-11% bigger. Not to mention that there are other differences in the design. Maybe it's my small stint in aircraft engineering, but those wings are different, those 'shoulders' are different and there's something different about the cockpit (maybe 1 vs. 2 seater)...

 

It's similar to the two different CAV Dictators imho.

 

No my biggest issue is usually the cockpit. It's either to huge or to tiny, because everything is scaled bigger/smaller. The move from 1/160 to 1/180 would make everything 12.5% bigger in every dimension.

 

Other companies list 10mm as 1/188 and N-scale as 1/200 (Dropzone Commander - Hawk Wargames) and others have 10mm miniatures who are about 11-12mm tall and would be 1/160 (Warmaster - Games Workshop). So let's just say that what exactly is exactly 10mm and N-scale is very dependent on which manufacturer you talk to, let's agree to disagree. If the infantry is 10mm to the top of the head I'm perfectly happy with calling it 1/180.

 

The problem is with the sizes listed in the already present CAV background, I have a distaste for revising fluff after a decade plus, don't really like it when it's done to 40k, WFB, D&D or Battletech. No reason why I would like it for CAV... But those are less of an issue then inconsistency in scale in a miniature line or worse, scale creep (my 25 year old plastic Space Marines are about a head shorter then the current line of Space Marines)...

 

 

In my opinion, scale is a small issue. I am more concerned with get the rules done and out there. Es the minis need to look good together snd not like someone slapped a 28mm in with 6 mm and called it good. Give me the rules and give me fluff. I wont take a ruler snd measure every bloody mini to see if the scale matches. There have been fluxes in most if not every line of minis. So in my opinion, we are burning Jons time on the rule book with the scale issue. I personally don't care if you want to field a True Scale mini with its underscaled counterpart, a Ghast is still a Ghast. I know there are those people who have to have all thier minis all the same scale and match just so, however my Ghasts will blow your CAVs to hell no matter what size they are. :)

 

I honestly care less about the rules, I know, sacrilegious! Maybe CAV was a hit in the US, but here in Europe, especially the Netherlands CAV as a game never really existed. Part of the problem is Reapers lousy European distribution network (Minifigs isn't exactly great for Reaper imho), the other part is that Mecha wargaming isn't as popular (as say regular sci-fi, fantasy or historical). First there is Battletech (does very well with the German crowd), then there is Heavy Gear (also lousy distribution in Europe), CAV wasn't really on the radar except as use as BT minis of your own design. Don't get me wrong, the cheaper plastic minis just might do the trick (especially if Reaper get's some sort of decent European distribution going), but imho it's still about the minis...

 

If your going to spend hundreds of thousands or even millions on converting a Mecha line to plastic, you better make damn sure you don't have to do any resculpting down the line, because that could get costly. Get consistency in there before production gets started, instead of having to do that at a later time...

 

 

Anyway, I'm getting things to a consistent level that going forward will keep future releases in line with what we have.

 

This is what I'm looking for, consistency!

 

What are you going for with the vehicles those smaller vehicles or the True Scale ones?

 

 

I lot of the designs that were not released were already moving in that direction.

 

Designs that were not released... Tell us more! ;-)

Edited by Cergorach

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I may be missing something here, but my main concern mentioned way back was not about scale change, but size change. I was wondering if the CAV models were going to be reduced to Battle Tech sizes rather than keeping them the size they are now?

 

-- The minis are staying the size they are now. With a few exceptions as to ones that are just to small or to big. As to which version of a mini will be used, it will be a case by case basis to see what fits what I want better.

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This sounds like good news to me, for the most part. I was drawn to CAV due to the larger sizes, and frankly I have been neglecting BT because of building a CAV battalion. . . okay, more like 3 battalions.

 

Keith

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I'm with Watchman, make more Big Stompy Cav! Finish out the line of vehicles in true scale (Despot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) I'm here for the metal. It would so much easier to drop the scale talk if models hadn't been dropped from game, big mistake. Please go ahead an pursue new designs, scales, whatever, but dropping models is causing ONLY problems, there will always be a core group of CAV who will pay whatever it costs to have great big metal tanks, then bones versions for fiscal reasons, you can sell both, profit from both, and grow the game 2X faster.

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-- The minis are staying the size they are now. With a few exceptions as to ones that are just to small or to big. As to which version of a mini will be used, it will be a case by case basis to see what fits what I want better.

 

This is an interesting approach. It will of course annoy those who have previous collections if their scale of a given mech is no longer in the game. However, drawing from both scales of CAV miniatures could add some real newness to the game and will allow you to really craft the range of units and their comparative sizes to the needs of the new game system.

 

I'll be watching with interest to see how this shakes out.

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BY THE GREAT GREEN GAMING GODDESSES FROM WHOSE BUSOMS ALL MOUNTAIN DEW DOES FLOW! PLASTIC COUGARS, DICTATORS, AND ASSASSINS...
IT'S A FREAKIN' FRIKKEN' FRACKEN' GORRAM MIRACLE!!!!!
Soon has arrived!!!!

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