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zedin

*sigh* Guess it is may then...

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Wow, that's a lot of misinformation crammed into a post about how people need to educate themselves.

How so? This page tells you all about accountability.

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#Acco

 

 

*Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. On Kickstarter, backers (you!) ultimately decide the validity and worthiness of a project by whether they decide to fund it. *

 

AND even if kickstarter says the company holding the kickstarter is responsible, you cant get blood out of a turnip or force someone to pay. They had a video game kickstarter where afterwards the company ran out of money during development. Noone will be getting anything out of that one.

Edited by emergencyoverride

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Read the faq that I posted.

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter+basics#Acco

 

but we can use your page also:

 

 

  • Backers agree to provide their payment information at the time they pledge to a campaign. The payment will be collected at or after the campaign deadline and only if the amount of money pledged as of the deadline is at least equal to the fundraising goal. The amount Backers pledge is the amount they will be charged.
  • Backers consent to Kickstarter and its payments partners authorizing or reserving a charge on their payment card or other payment method for any amount up to the full pledge at any time between the pledge and collection of the funds.
  • Backers agree to have sufficient funds or credit available at the campaign deadline to ensure that the pledge will be collectible.
  • Backers may increase, decrease, or cancel their pledge at any time during the fundraising campaign, except that they may not cancel or reduce their pledge if the campaign is in its final 24 hours and the cancellation or reduction would drop the campaign below its goal.
  • The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by.
  • Project Creators agree to make a good faith attempt to fulfill each reward by its Estimated Delivery Date.
  • For all campaigns, Kickstarter gives to the Project Creator each Backer’s User ID and pledge amount. For successful campaigns, Kickstarter additionally gives to the Project Creator each Backer’s name and email.
  • For some rewards, the Project Creator needs further information from Backers, such as a mailing address or t-shirt size, to enable the Project Creator to deliver the rewards. The Project Creator shall request the information directly from Backers at some point after the fundraising campaign is successful. To receive the reward, Backers agree to provide the requested information to the Project Creator within a reasonable amount of time.
  • Kickstarter does not offer refunds. A Project Creator is not required to grant a Backer’s request for a refund unless the Project Creator is unable or unwilling to fulfill the reward.
  • Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.
  • Project Creators may cancel or refund a Backer’s pledge at any time and for any reason, and if they do so, are not required to fulfill the reward.
  • Because of occasional failures of payments from Backers, Kickstarter cannot guarantee the receipt by Project Creators of the amount pledged minus fees.
  • Kickstarter and its payments partners will remove their fees before transmitting proceeds of a campaign. Fees may vary depending on region and other factors.
  • Kickstarter reserves the right to cancel a pledge at any time and for any reason.
  • Kickstarter reserves the right to reject, cancel, interrupt, remove, or suspend a campaign at any time and for any reason. Kickstarter is not liable for any damages as a result of any of those actions. Kickstarter’s policy is not to comment on the reasons for any of those actions.
  • Project Creators should not take any action in reliance on having their project posted on the Site or having any of the money pledged until they have the ability to withdraw and spend the money. There may be a delay between the end of a successful fundraising campaign and access to the funds.

All of these things are "required", but how many times have they not been refunded or fulfilled, because the money was gone due to miscalculation or other problems. They can say someone is legally required to do such and so, but how is that then backed up? Ask the people that lost their money to kickstarters and have received nothing. Being legally required to do something and actually being made to do it or having tha ability to do it are two different things. That is why kickstarter does not offer refunds or guarantees themselves, they state that the compnay holding the kickstarter is responsible.

Edited by emergencyoverride

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Here is a quote from that faq regarding fullfillment.


"Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill."


Also the faq is simply a summary of the terms of use. It has no legal relevance while the terms of use do.

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You are missing the point here. There is an element of risk associated with a kickstarter. All of these things are "required", but how many times have they not been refunded or fulfilled, because the money was gone due to miscalculation or other problems. They can say someone is legally required to do such and so, but how is that then backed up? Ask the people that lost their money to kickstarters and have received nothing. Being legally required to do something and actually being made to do it or having the ability to do it are two different things. That is why I say there is no guarantee. You cannot get money or product from someone when they dont have it to give back regardless of whether they say it is required. That is why kickstarter does not offer refunds or guarantees themselves, they state that the compnay holding the kickstarter is responsible.

Edited by emergencyoverride

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I posted something similar to this in the thread about order complexity, but this post is going to be expanded a good bit.

 

A large part of why people are getting so twisted up in knots about having to wait for their Bones is that they just don't understand what Kickstarter really is. They think that Kickstarter is a preorder, when the reality is that it's a new(ish) method of Venture Capitalism. Specifically, it's a spin on the traditional "Angel Investor" setup, which in itself isn't that far from the old model of artistic patronage. Basically, an angel investor is a single person who puts their own money forward in order to support a new business venture that isn't able to get a bank loan due to whatever reason. The "angel" takes a lot of risks in investing like that, because there's no guaranteed return. In exchange for the risk, the angel can see high rewards in many different ways. One of the big ways is in seeing a monetary return that can be much greater than what they would see in typical investing, but other ways include seeing things such as a further advancement of the arts, access to a new product that they particularly wanted, or even just the good feeling of being a philanthropist who helped someone achieve their dream. Kickstarter, and crowd funding in general, is just a means of turning regular people who aren't exceedingly wealthy into a giant group of angel investors. People pitch their ideas, set a goal that they hope to reach to bring that idea to fruition, and then everyone who backs that project becomes an angel investor, even if it is only for a tiny amount.

 

In some cases, the Kickstarter projects fail, regardless of the funding received, and that's a risk you have to be willing to take. In all cases there is the chance of delays that can come with any new business prospect. In Reaper's specific case the chance of total failure was extremely low once they hit their initial goal. Reaper is already an established company with established working channels and an established production line, so there was almost no chance that you would lose out on your investment barring some catastrophic event. But there was still the chance of delays due to the product you were backing coming from overseas. There could have been factory issues, shipping issues, etc. The massive number of backers, combined with the expanding rewards for each investment, made the chances of a delay grow because there were more points of failure. New sculpts might not be completed on time. The extra 150+ molds, the ones beyond the initially planned 30 new ones, that were needing to be manufactured may have took longer to finish than expected. Maybe the factory in China suffered equipment failures partway through the extended production run. Or, as was actually seen, one of the multiple shipments from China could have been held up in customs. Things like that can and do happen, which is why the Kickstarter had the word "Estimated" in front of the shipping dates. Unless you've already got the product finished and in hand, you can't be 100% sure that you're going to ship on a set date.

 

The fact that they were even able to start shipping in March, even if it was the last week of the month, after exceeding their goal by such an awesome amount, and with many times more backers than I think they ever expected, is a pretty good sign. It means that Reaper had a good idea of the delays to expect, and they accounted for at least part of that in their initial shipping estimates. From what I've heard of some other Kickstarter projects, there are a lot who have pie-eyed dreams and fail to take everything into account. Now they're seeing massive delays and some have seemingly fallen flat on their face despite being fully funded.

 

Allow me to say that I'm not trying to be an apologist for Reaper with this post, and I'll try to explain why. Before this Kickstarter I had honestly never actually heard of the company because I've never really been a miniatures collector and I only owned a single mini that I had bought 10 years ago at a comic shop. I was more than content to use chess pieces, checkers, and paper tokens when gaming, But when I saw the Kickstarter I did some digging, found out that they've been around for decades and have a great reputation, and decided to watch and see what happened. I ended up backing the project near the end, because I decided that the price for what I was getting was too good to pass up, and with Reaper being an established company rather than a new startup I was practically guaranteed to get what I pledged for. They would have far too much to lose if they failed to deliver after 3 million dollars had been given to them. So I'm not trying to say "Reaper can do no wrong" or trying to make you think that they're perfect.

 

What I am trying to do is help you understand that you didn't preorder a product that had a shipping date set in stone. You invested in a project that someone wanted to undertake, and in return for your investment they promised you something to show for it within a certain timeframe. That timeframe came, and by all rights they did have something to show for it. They had a new section of their building that you helped build, they had a new piece of machinery that you helped buy, and they started shipping the product that you helped them produce. You also know that, despite not getting your full return within the originally set timeframe, other people have and that yours is coming to you as well. It just might take a little longer than what they had initially thought.

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the length, and I know I've probably gotten some of the info about angel investing wrong, but I was trying to keep it simple and easily digestable rather than going into a whole bunch of legalese and economics. Please don't hate me for it if you're an economist/broker/accountant, because I'm not one. I was just going by what I know about angel investing and venture capitalism, which is admittedly very little compared to someone in that line of work.

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So what you are saying is that Reaper could just run off with all the money funded and not provide anything promised so any whiners should shut up and be happy with whatever they do get? That seems a little strange point of view...

 

this was in response to several message up - not yours unruly

Edited by petrov27

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At this point I believe there is only one case of someone suing a project creator due to fulfillment They won and took every last cent the project creator had left forcing them into bankruptcy over a $90 pledge...

 

Obviously though most of this has little to do with Reaper. Reaper is delivering everything per the terms of use.

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So what you are saying is that Reaper could just run off with all the money funded and not provide anything promised so any whiners should shut up and be happy with whatever they do get? That seems a little strange point of view...

No, my point was that people shouldnt look at this like placing an order on amazon. A kickstarter is not a guaranteed thing regardless of what their terms of use state. There is the chance of loss. And yes it has happened, that is why they have all of the talk about estimated delivery date and stuff in their terms presently. I'm saying that Reaper has done a fine job of keeping their kickstarter promises and that not all kickstarters go this smoothly and that people should cut them a break.

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To add, isn't the main reason folks are complaining is the the fact that the more you funded, the later down the priority your order falls? That this would cause disappointment is understandable. I don't think this was due to delays in sculpts or anything - more related to they are shipping the "easier" orders first in order to clear more of them?

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To add, isn't the main reason folks are complaining is the the fact that the more you funded, the later down the priority your order falls? That this would cause disappointment is understandable. I don't think this was due to delays in sculpts or anything - more related to they are shipping the "easier" orders first in order to clear more of them?

No most of the complaints I see are about shipping past march period. Some have said what you stated but by and large it has been, OMG ITS APRIL!!! YOU GUYS SUCK!!! Stuff like that. When reading on the kickstarter website tells you this:

 

The Estimated Delivery Date listed on each reward is not a promise to fulfill by that date, but is merely an estimate of when the Project Creator hopes to fulfill by

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I'm actually reminded of a case in court right now, involving Prenda Law.

 

Basically, they've been accused of some very illegal behavior in chasing copyright lawsuits. They recently plead the fifth in court. While this is perfectly within their rights, it makes a lot of problems for their other civil disputes currently ongoing, because while it can't be held against them in criminal court, it can be brought up as relevant in civil court. It also destroys their credibility as lawyers. Yes, it's within their rights, but it rightfully has other consequences.

 

When a company fails to follow through on a Kickstarter, it does have an effect on their reputation. Cairn fell through, and there's no telling now whether backers will be receiving anything. Yes, the creator made a good faith effort, and so long as they continue to do so, they haven't defaulted on the Kickstarter. But that still looks bad. It looks like they can't keep their promises. They don't have their act together. People aren't going to want to back their next project or do other business with them until they've shown that they've improved. And that's perfectly valid. If someone shows they can't deliver on their promises, you don't want to do business with them.

 

That isn't the case here. Reaper was up front about things that would affect their delivery. They brought up customs multiple times during and after the Kickstarter. They said that March was their best estimation, but that it was only an estimation. As the orders piled up, they clarified that they were starting in March, but might still be delivering afterwards. They now have the product in hand, and are mailing it off as quickly as possible, after some unavoidable delays.

 

Reaper has kept their promises. People are just assuming they promised more than they did.

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To add, isn't the main reason folks are complaining is the the fact that the more you funded, the later down the priority your order falls? That this would cause disappointment is understandable. I don't think this was due to delays in sculpts or anything - more related to they are shipping the "easier" orders first in order to clear more of them?

I think maybe Reaper might regret telling us this is how they are shipping. Of course if they didn't say anything about how they were determining shipping order, they'd have gotten a completely separate set of complaints, but still, this does seem to stick in a lot of craws. Personally, I think it is a very sensible method, for a lot of reasons. And I say this as someone who pledged north of 400 dollars on this project so I know I'll be much later in the process. But I also say this as someone who has worked in manufacturing and knows how slow ramping up production can be, no matter what the skill level of the people involved.

 

First, you get the greatest fulfillment in the shortest time. As the early unboxing videos show, the single vampire orders are very easy to ship. Drop in a box, seal, slap on a shipping label and give it to the post office. The second tier is Vampire plus a few add ons, presumably whatever will fit in the next size of box. The nice thing about this step is the shipping department gets to know package sizes better, and as they fulfill more orders, estimating box sizes becomes second nature. If they started with packing 2 vampires and 20 add ons, they'd waste so much time picking boxes too big or too small, wasting oversized boxes when they weren't needed and repacking undersized boxes that the entire shipping process would be slowed. By now, their most experienced shippers can look at a customer list of 10-15 items and know right off the bat which box they will need, and which items need to go in before others to maximize space, greatly speeding the process. This makes the nightmarishly complex later orders doable in a reasonable time period.

 

Reaper is doing it right. Most consumers just have no idea how tricky it can be to get everything together for a project this size. And everyone (including me) wants their new toys yesterday.

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and this time it's not Buglip's fault for the thread drifting. He was the last one really on topic....frightening.

 

 

I do that every now and then just to throw people off.

Throw them off topic?
No, he means making people throw up. Taking his stanky shoes off. I know, its quite hard to understand a goblin...their brains are like Swiss cheese (and their feet like Limberger).

 

EDIT to add: I guess I should have left this thread before page 7...

Edited by Baphomet69

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