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love my bones!


lizardbrain
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Never played much 3rd edition. Got into it in 3.5 and now Pathfinder which I find very very simple. Roll my D20, add my modifiers to the number that comes up, either I fail or succeed based on the number the DM has. Less saving throws to worry about, less number to crunch, very easy for me.

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Armor class can be seen as a modifier to the roll.

 

Thac0 10

 

I roll 5. Goblin AC 6. 5+6 is 11, 11 beats 10, goblin hurt.

 

I roll 10. Demon AC -4. 10-4 is 6. Demon laughs.

I didn't like 3rd edition at first, because the second edition system as buglips illustrates works very well, and made sense. It got to be second nature, so much so that if I had a Thac0 of 17, and the DM described some NPCs in chainmail and a shield, I'd know I needed a 13 to hit (generic mobs rarely had magic or dex adjustments).

 

First edition was a little more confusing with the flattened section, but it ultimately used the same mechanic. I remember we'd redo our hit table with every AC listed to -10 every time a variable changed, so you'd have a Thac10, Thac9, etc.

 

Eventually though I did embrace third edition, it is simpler math and more intuitive.

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I remember playing 2E D&D with a mid-to-high level Thief/Assassin (everyone had a kit in 2E!). I had what I needed to roll to hit AC 10 to AC -10 written down on a peice of paper for the various weapons I used (as well as if I was attacking with 2 weapons or just 1).

 

I could probably have calculated the to-hit roll each time, but there were that many different modifiers (in addition to the backwards way that THACO calculations worked), that it was just a lot easier to have it all written out beforehand.

 

3.5E can get a bit like that sometimes, but mainly due to the number of different modifiers you can have in play from spells, magic items, class abilities, etc.

 

Olaf the Stout

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We use our minis to play 2nd edition D&D. We tried 3rd once, didn't really care for it ("what, you mean we have to roll our Gather Information skill just to ask someone where a shop is? that's flippin' idiotic!"), plus me hubby has all the box for 2nd. And I do mean ALL the books (Encyclopedia Magicka, anyone?).

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Without more information, there's no way to know whether the request was unreasonable. If the party was just looking for "a tavern", that should be trivial. If the party is looking for "The Eviscerated Boar", a hole-in-the-wall tavern associated with the assassins' guild on the bad side of a major city that the party has never visited? Seems reasonable to me. (Note that there's a continuum of difficulty here.)

 

It's not a matter of rolling "to ask", but rather of finding someone who both knows the answer and is willing to talk to sketchy-looking strangers whose accents are all wrong.

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Certain skills like that, and they're present in 2E as well, we made mandatory roleplay+roll. Two examples that come straight to mind are Fast-Talking and Turning Undead.

 

Turning is the originator of this. If you're a priest, you can't just whip out the holy symbol, roll, and hope for magic. It requires a speech. If your speech is poor, and not very faithful, lacking energy, and just flat - you get a negative. If it's pretty decent, no modifier. But if you belt out some holy thunder - a bonus!

 

Same with Fast-Talking. Do it poorly, then the rube in not impressed. Do it well, and you'll get a bonus.

 

 

I once fast-talked my way out of something so well, I got the skill for free. :lol:

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Agree with the last two posts. Those are perfectly reasonable ways to approach skills like gathering information or whatever. But there should usually be a roll involved, just to keep everyone from dumping charisma and then trying to be nice and get whatever info they need from the locals. Those who invest in charisma and the skill ranks for the skill should get a benefit for it.

 

On AC, I learned to play on the old D&D red and blue box Basic and Expert sets, followed by 1st edition AD&D, so THACO didn't quite exist in an easy to understand form yet. We looked everything up in a chart to see what our target number was. Got back into gaming with Pathfinder and 4e (and stuck to Pathfinder) about a year and a half ago, and I really prefer the new d20 system. It's very logical and easy to understand.

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Those who invest in charisma and the skill ranks for the skill should get a benefit for it.

 

I've always (in 3.x, anyway) used a modifier of up to +/-2 for RP when using a skill. You sit like a bump on a log and just roll dice all night long, expect the -2 penalty. Average play results in average (unmodified results). Bring the drama, and earn your bonus. The small penalty keeps players from being completely reliant on their stat sheets, and the small bonus keeps dominant, gregarious players from being to be able to "do everything" just because they are outgoing. I'm also an advocate of the +/-2 Circumstance modifier for tweaking checks due to over (or under) zealous RP, prejudice by NPCs against a particular dump stat ("As your character only has a Int of 6, he's not very smart. He spends a lot of time asking questions ;the shop keeper seems to be irritated by this. Go ahead and make that check at a -2"), etc.

 

~v

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Those who invest in charisma and the skill ranks for the skill should get a benefit for it.

 

I've always (in 3.x, anyway) used a modifier of up to +/-2 for RP when using a skill. You sit like a bump on a log and just roll dice all night long, expect the -2 penalty. Average play results in average (unmodified results). Bring the drama, and earn your bonus. The small penalty keeps players from being completely reliant on their stat sheets, and the small bonus keeps dominant, gregarious players from being to be able to "do everything" just because they are outgoing. I'm also an advocate of the +/-2 Circumstance modifier for tweaking checks due to over (or under) zealous RP, prejudice by NPCs against a particular dump stat ("As your character only has a Int of 6, he's not very smart. He spends a lot of time asking questions ;the shop keeper seems to be irritated by this. Go ahead and make that check at a -2"), etc.

 

~v

Sounds good to me. In fact, I think in Pathfinder, they actually recommend +2 circumstance bonuses for stuff like good RP when using social skills, to encourage people to ham it up. I don't think there's penalties for bad RP, though. Some people just aren't as good at talking, so you shouldn't penalize them for it.

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i will plan on using these for RPGs at some point, but for now ill be using them for skirmish games.

 

Song of Blades and Heroes is fantastic! i currently use a mishmash of the SoBH rules, including my favorite spin-off "shadowsea." the structure of this KS was perfect for that rules system. because a game requires very few models each add-on of a theme can be used for a whole new warband. the system has no faction rules either, so there are near infinite possibilities for warband builds. i cant recommend SoBH enough.

 

also on the horizon is a dungeon crawl using a home brewed rule system, just for kicks.

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