Jump to content

love my bones!


lizardbrain
 Share

Recommended Posts

 

 

d100 using two 10-sided dice distributes better, since most d10s are more regular sculpts.

And even if you don't trust the shape of the d10, there are always d20 shaped dice labeled 1-10 twice (long ago, they were all like that). Being platonic solids, those should roll better.

 

Not especially convinced about that. The d10 is a fair shape (it's a d12 with the "top" and "bottom" pentagons approaching points), but the question is whether the mold is fair. And it's not clear to me that a d20 is any easier to sculpt than a d10.

 

FWIW, in the tests that I've done I haven't seen any systematic errors in either shape. It's difficult to get a sample size large enough to really see a minor problem, though.

 

I'll stick with Hero and 3d6. Or 3d10 in my Dragaeran Hero game... :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 183
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

the shape of a d10, a trapezohedra, is considered a mathematically fair dice shape (fair as in unbiased towards a particular face when rolled). any bias would be the fault of the mfg, not the tried and true shape of the d10. from the perspective of probabilities d% and d100 are identical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

d100 using two 10-sided dice distributes better, since most d10s are more regular sculpts.

And even if you don't trust the shape of the d10, there are always d20 shaped dice labeled 1-10 twice (long ago, they were all like that). Being platonic solids, those should roll better.

 

Not especially convinced about that. The d10 is a fair shape (it's a d12 with the "top" and "bottom" pentagons approaching points), but the question is whether the mold is fair. And it's not clear to me that a d20 is any easier to sculpt than a d10.

 

FWIW, in the tests that I've done I haven't seen any systematic errors in either shape. It's difficult to get a sample size large enough to really see a minor problem, though.

 

I'll stick with Hero and 3d6. Or 3d10 in my Dragaeran Hero game... :)

 

Shouldn't that be 3d17? :;):

 

I went to 3d10 for Hero as well, to increase the variance. IIRC, it increased the standard deviation of a roll by about 1 so I could have a greater range of OCV and DCV without breaking the game.

 

I also use a card draw system for SPD: 1 card per point of Speed, drawn several cards at a time, and then sorted by DEX. This was to make it harder for people like me to game the system. That worked pretty well in play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll be the first to admit that my math sucks, but isn't a 5% increase on a d100 the same percentage or increase in chance as adding 1 on a d20 roll?

 

I don't think that's sounding right, but I'm too tired to make my brain work correctly. And, we're talking math, which always makes my mind turn to mush.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

d100 using two 10-sided dice distributes better, since most d10s are more regular sculpts.

And even if you don't trust the shape of the d10, there are always d20 shaped dice labeled 1-10 twice (long ago, they were all like that). Being platonic solids, those should roll better.

 

Not especially convinced about that. The d10 is a fair shape (it's a d12 with the "top" and "bottom" pentagons approaching points), but the question is whether the mold is fair. And it's not clear to me that a d20 is any easier to sculpt than a d10.

 

FWIW, in the tests that I've done I haven't seen any systematic errors in either shape. It's difficult to get a sample size large enough to really see a minor problem, though.

 

I'll stick with Hero and 3d6. Or 3d10 in my Dragaeran Hero game... :)

 

Shouldn't that be 3d17? :;):

 

I went to 3d10 for Hero as well, to increase the variance. IIRC, it increased the standard deviation of a roll by about 1 so I could have a greater range of OCV and DCV without breaking the game.

 

I also use a card draw system for SPD: 1 card per point of Speed, drawn several cards at a time, and then sorted by DEX. This was to make it harder for people like me to game the system. That worked pretty well in play.

 

Well, 3d10 does give a standard target number of 17, which works out nicely. :)

 

And I know you've been known to use 3d10 for Hero; you're the one that suggested it to me. I also remember the card draw system. Hi Doug, long time. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

%d for skills better? I don't have the energy to run through why %d are just bad. Needless to say the only way to get a true percentage is to roll a true d100 which is a ball not a die. Difficult to read and quite possibly the dumbest die ever created. Tell me why do you need that level of granularity? The d20 elegantly handles the granularity one wants from the %d. 27% on 2d10 vs a 16+ on a d20 is nearly the same and on the d20 more likely to produce results closer to 27% than 2d10 can ever produce.

5% jumps are fine when dealing with things that have a near 50% success chance. If anything, it's too finely grained, but at the extremes, 5% is way too large.

 

And 2 10-sided-dice produces as true an even distribution as one of those golf ball dice does. That last sentence is just factually wrong. d20 can hit 25 and 30, but 2d10 read as percents can get 27%. I don't even understand why you would make a statement that obviously wrong.

 

Believe what you will. The reason I loathe the d10 is in order to get numbers approaching average you must roll an inordinate amount of dice. So for a game where you make less than 10 %d rolls a session chances are good you will rarely get what you need until your tens place is 5 or better. For purposes of gaming the d20 mechanic is actually better. 27% is not saying anything better than the 25% a d20 replicates. This is my point, and on 2d10 or a d100 it really means I'm 73% more likely to fail than succeed because chances are better than 27% that I won't roll a 27% or less in a single game session. This translates to me not having fun because I did nothing skill-wise the entire game.

 

As for the d10 being a fair die. It is if you like a coin toss to have five flavors per side. There is one game mechanic where d10s make sense and actually work and that is in a roll-and-keep system e.g. AEG's 7th Sea or L5R.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

%d for skills better? I don't have the energy to run through why %d are just bad. Needless to say the only way to get a true percentage is to roll a true d100 which is a ball not a die. Difficult to read and quite possibly the dumbest die ever created. Tell me why do you need that level of granularity? The d20 elegantly handles the granularity one wants from the %d. 27% on 2d10 vs a 16+ on a d20 is nearly the same and on the d20 more likely to produce results closer to 27% than 2d10 can ever produce.

5% jumps are fine when dealing with things that have a near 50% success chance. If anything, it's too finely grained, but at the extremes, 5% is way too large.

 

And 2 10-sided-dice produces as true an even distribution as one of those golf ball dice does. That last sentence is just factually wrong. d20 can hit 25 and 30, but 2d10 read as percents can get 27%. I don't even understand why you would make a statement that obviously wrong.

 

Believe what you will. The reason I loathe the d10 is in order to get numbers approaching average you must roll an inordinate amount of dice. So for a game where you make less than 10 %d rolls a session chances are good you will rarely get what you need until your tens place is 5 or better. For purposes of gaming the d20 mechanic is actually better. 27% is not saying anything better than the 25% a d20 replicates. This is my point, and on 2d10 or a d100 it really means I'm 73% more likely to fail than succeed because chances are better than 27% that I won't roll a 27% or less in a single game session. This translates to me not having fun because I did nothing skill-wise the entire game.

 

As for the d10 being a fair die. It is if you like a coin toss to have five flavors per side. There is one game mechanic where d10s make sense and actually work and that is in a roll-and-keep system e.g. AEG's 7th Sea or L5R.

I cannot follow a single thing you said. A d20 mechanic and a d% mechanic do exactly the same thing. One is tied to jumps of 5% and the other isn't, but you seem to be claiming that one produces success more often (?), and that simply isn't true. A 27% on a percentile will occur more often than a 16+ on a d20.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

d100 using two 10-sided dice distributes better, since most d10s are more regular sculpts.

And even if you don't trust the shape of the d10, there are always d20 shaped dice labeled 1-10 twice (long ago, they were all like that). Being platonic solids, those should roll better.

 

Not especially convinced about that. The d10 is a fair shape (it's a d12 with the "top" and "bottom" pentagons approaching points), but the question is whether the mold is fair. And it's not clear to me that a d20 is any easier to sculpt than a d10.

 

FWIW, in the tests that I've done I haven't seen any systematic errors in either shape. It's difficult to get a sample size large enough to really see a minor problem, though.

 

I'll stick with Hero and 3d6. Or 3d10 in my Dragaeran Hero game... :)

 

Shouldn't that be 3d17? :;):

 

I went to 3d10 for Hero as well, to increase the variance. IIRC, it increased the standard deviation of a roll by about 1 so I could have a greater range of OCV and DCV without breaking the game.

 

I also use a card draw system for SPD: 1 card per point of Speed, drawn several cards at a time, and then sorted by DEX. This was to make it harder for people like me to game the system. That worked pretty well in play.

 

Well, 3d10 does give a standard target number of 17, which works out nicely. :)

 

And I know you've been known to use 3d10 for Hero; you're the one that suggested it to me. I also remember the card draw system. Hi Doug, long time. ;)

 

Long time indeed. Good to "hear" from you.

 

Good to know that my efforts at corruption have been successful, too. ^_^

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

%d for skills better? I don't have the energy to run through why %d are just bad. Needless to say the only way to get a true percentage is to roll a true d100 which is a ball not a die. Difficult to read and quite possibly the dumbest die ever created. Tell me why do you need that level of granularity? The d20 elegantly handles the granularity one wants from the %d. 27% on 2d10 vs a 16+ on a d20 is nearly the same and on the d20 more likely to produce results closer to 27% than 2d10 can ever produce.

5% jumps are fine when dealing with things that have a near 50% success chance. If anything, it's too finely grained, but at the extremes, 5% is way too large.

 

And 2 10-sided-dice produces as true an even distribution as one of those golf ball dice does. That last sentence is just factually wrong. d20 can hit 25 and 30, but 2d10 read as percents can get 27%. I don't even understand why you would make a statement that obviously wrong.

 

Believe what you will. The reason I loathe the d10 is in order to get numbers approaching average you must roll an inordinate amount of dice. So for a game where you make less than 10 %d rolls a session chances are good you will rarely get what you need until your tens place is 5 or better. For purposes of gaming the d20 mechanic is actually better. 27% is not saying anything better than the 25% a d20 replicates. This is my point, and on 2d10 or a d100 it really means I'm 73% more likely to fail than succeed because chances are better than 27% that I won't roll a 27% or less in a single game session. This translates to me not having fun because I did nothing skill-wise the entire game.

 

As for the d10 being a fair die. It is if you like a coin toss to have five flavors per side. There is one game mechanic where d10s make sense and actually work and that is in a roll-and-keep system e.g. AEG's 7th Sea or L5R.

I'm not sure what this means, but I think you live in a different mathematical universe than I do. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot follow a single thing you said. A d20 mechanic and a d% mechanic do exactly the same thing. One is tied to jumps of 5% and the other isn't, but you seem to be claiming that one produces success more often (?), and that simply isn't true. A 27% on a percentile will occur more often than a 16+ on a d20.

 

Theoretically yes. The problem is %d actually have in the example used 73 discreet times of failure. The d20 has 15. Therefore to see any success on a %d you must roll an inordinate amount of times before 27% shows up like probability tells you it would. From a game design perspective that's bad. Especially when that %d is rolled less than 20 times in a game session. Furthermore that level of granularity serves no purpose other than telling the player they should have played something that "x" amount of times will fail. Probability doesn't determine when; it determines if.

 

The law of averages relies on the law of large numbers. Coin flips are a great examples. You don't start approaching average until the sample set is sufficiently large, but in small sets your chances of being close to the mean are pretty good with a coin. The more sides to a die you add the larger your sample set must become. Therefore while 27% is better than 25%, a %d isn't a great mechanic when the sample set is small while d20 is more likely to generate numbers you want at smaller sample sets.

 

The problem I and others have is, what is gained from the granularity? Also what does 27% say that makes it superior or better to a 16+? I posit the answer is nothing other than frustration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Umm. No.

 

If you flip a coin twice, counting heads as high and tails as low, there is a 25% chance that you will "roll" high both times. If you roll a d10 twice, there is a 25% chance that you will roll high both times. If you roll a d100 twice, there is a 25% chance that you will roll high both times.

 

There is no mathematical difference between those probabilities, assuming fair coins and dice.

 

You can play the same game with a d4 and top quarter of results, or any other probability.

 

Now, I sympathize with what I perceive to be your complaint about false precision. In most circumstances, there is no noticeable difference between a 25% and 26% probability of success. Trying to model at that level of precision is fruitless. If you have more things on your list of desired possibilities than the number of sides on your die, though, it makes sense to look for a more fine-grained result set. That's why it's pretty common in many games to use d100 or d1000 for random encounters, or random treasure, or whatever.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure what this means, but I think you live in a different mathematical universe than I do. :)

 

I give you a chance to win a million dollars you must pull out of 1 of 2 bags presented a winning slip of paper. Bag 1 contains 27 winning slips with 73 losing strips. Bag 2 contains 5 winners 15 losers. You get 20 chances to pull and must put the slip of paper back every time you pull a failure. Which bag do you choose? Most people will choose the bag with the smaller number of slips because the number of total choices is smaller.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'm not sure what this means, but I think you live in a different mathematical universe than I do. :)

 

I give you a chance to win a million dollars you must pull out of 1 of 2 bags presented a winning slip of paper. Bag 1 contains 27 winning slips with 73 losing strips. Bag 2 contains 5 winners 15 losers. You get 20 chances to pull and must put the slip of paper back every time you pull a failure. Which bag do you choose? Most people will choose the bag with the smaller number of slips because the number of total choices is smaller.

 

Possibly they would, but if so they would have a slightly smaller chance of winning than those choosing the bag with 100 strips in it. Of course you are virtually guaranteed of winning in either case, given that you have 20 chances to get a winner.

 

Edit: The actual numbers: You have a 0.185% chance of failing from bag 1 after 20 tries. You have a 0.317% chance of failing from bag 2 after 20 tries.

Edited by denneyg
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'm not sure what this means, but I think you live in a different mathematical universe than I do. :)

 

I give you a chance to win a million dollars you must pull out of 1 of 2 bags presented a winning slip of paper. Bag 1 contains 27 winning slips with 73 losing strips. Bag 2 contains 5 winners 15 losers. You get 20 chances to pull and must put the slip of paper back every time you pull a failure. Which bag do you choose? Most people will choose the bag with the smaller number of slips because the number of total choices is smaller.

 

Can you introduce me to "most people"? I'd like to start a poker game.

 

^_^

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...