(SPLIT) While Waiting for KS Bones...

[EngineerJeff]

While waiting for my Kickstarter, I'm watching the anime, Akira.. over and over again.. Occasionally I throw in some Game of Thrones first season to mix it up. :)

[sumbloke]

I'm currently working my way through the M*A*S*H box set...

[Loim]

I'm one of 3 people in the U.S. who hated The Hobbit. Hated it to the point where it made me sick to my stomach. I'm currently waiting for Season 3 of Sherlock to hit one of the streaming sites. I'm also watching the Jack Taylor series on Netflix, and other random horrible movies.

[Pingo]

I'm one of 3 people in the U.S. who hated The Hobbit. Hated it to the point where it made me sick to my stomach. I'm currently waiting for Season 3 of Sherlock to hit one of the streaming sites. I'm also watching the Jack Taylor series on Netflix, and other random horrible movies.

I did not care for what Hollywood did to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and I care even less for what they have done to the Hobbit.

 

If they wished to make their own Hollywood trope-ridden fantasy extravaganza they should have simply done so and left Tolkien's name out of it.

[Suden]

I love the Lord of the Rings, books and movies. Neither is perfect, but both are pretty awesome. Tom Bombadil and Fatty Bolger were missed in the movies, but understandable cuts. The scouring of the shire was a massive part of the novels for me, I missed them in the movie. I really hoped we would get Bombadil in the Hobbit, he was padding the book anyway, that'd be a great sequence. Of course, he is clearly making the Hobbit for a younger audience, and barrow wights might have been a bit much.

 

Fredegar was a real hero in the book. He was a coward, but still he did the right thing. While the others fled the horrors of the dark riders, he stayed, masquerading as Frodo and drawing the ringwraiths to him so the others could escape. Young me was terribly impressed, and I still think this was probably the most heroic moment in the trilogy, it is much easier to run, whether away or toward trouble. But to stay, sitting in a dark house, a house they chose on the edge of the shire, next to a scary woods, so as to protect the rest of the shire, and just wait for the horrors you don't just think might be in the dark, but that you know is out there and coming... yeah, that's the definition of heroism for me. (I know, run on sentence).

 

I don't think Peter Jackson liked dwarves much. He definitely favored the elves. In the books, Gimli was a powerhouse, in the movies more of a joke. Of course part of that was the restrictive nature of his costume and the advanced age of John Rhys-Davies, but still, I thought he got the short shrift in the movies. I remember in the book, Aragorn planned to take Gimli along into Mordor when the fellowship broke, the movie version of Aragorn would likely have chosen Legolas who was given all the f**k yeah moments. My least favorite moments in the movies were shield surfing Legolas and Mumakil slaying Legolas.

 

I did like the movie version of Aragorn. He was much more unsure and tenative, but that worked for the character. I wish he had carried the shards of Narsil and it had been reforged earlier though.

 

I agree with buglips assessment of Helms Deep. It would have been even better if a squad of dwarves also joined the battle.

[Last Knight]

I agree with buglips assessment of Helms Deep. It would have been even better if a squad of dwarves also joined the battle.

....hey.

[Suden]

 

I agree with buglips assessment of Helms Deep. It would have been even better if a squad of dwarves also joined the battle.

....hey.

You thought it was a bad idea. Buglips thought it was a good idea. I agreed, and thought it would have been even better if they had showed up with a squad of dwarven axemen in tow. Except for the five o'clock shadow. I could have done without that on the elves.

[Baugi]

Okay, so this is new for me. I'm used to being the guy that talks for an hour after the movie, explaining why the things my friends hated were actually awesome, and they're all wrong and silly people.

 

This time, regarding everything said about the Tolkien movies, AND the various Treks, I can confidently say "I agree with Buglips", who appears (as I am) to be willing to spend AS MUCH TIME in Peter Jackson's Middle Earth as Jackson is willing to create.

[Unruly]

Allow me to just say this, and I accept all consequences that come with it - The Lord of the Rings books put me to sleep. Literally. It took me three months to finish The Two Towers because every time I picked it up I fell asleep within 10 minutes. Return of the King took me almost a year, for the same reason.

 

They're epic fantasy and a great story once you get through them all, but they bore the crap out of me. In my opinion, about half of each book could have been cut without significantly impacting the overall story. Too much time was spent making the world have a complete history and delving into description that the pacing suffered greatly for it. Sometimes it seemed as though entire chapters could have been summed up into just a handful of sentences, and there were times where I would actually forget bits that I had just recently read because of such a long diversion into the unnecessary.

 

But I'm willing to accept that my reason for disliking the books is also the reason that so many people enjoy them so much. They like that he built an entire, fully-fleshed, world for them to get lost in. Which is fine. There are some things that I'm a bit of the same way about. Tolkien's writing style and I don't mix well.

[buglips*the*goblin]

To address Buglips comments about elves: they're passing into the West. They're immortal, they've seen this play out time and time again and the last time this happened, effectively yesterday for an elf, a human threw away the chance to end this evil in the world. Why would they fight for humans again, when Valinor awaits them? Especially the way they protrayed Elronds doubts in the film!

 

Oh, it's a powerful moment. And I get what you're saying. But one of the central themes to Tolkein's work is that a new age is dawning, and that the elves are leaving Middle-Earth. Them allying with Men undercuts that a little.

 

Not enough for me to dislike it, but it's a little jarring with the sense that, well, Winter is coming to the elves. They are the past, Men are the future.

 

 

Except that within the context we are given, the Elves have the most riding on Sauron's defeat. We're shown that when man failed to destroy the ring, it had taken the combined effort of everybody to subdue Sauron when he had his ring. So for the elves to say it's man's problem is as good as saying "this fight can't be won". That's hardly heroic. That's fundamentally defeatist, and makes the Elves wholly complicit in Sauron's victory.

 

And we aren't given any real context for "The West" as an impenetrable shelter from Sauron (within the narrative of the movies, because that needs to stand as a contained story, and not require reams of indexes to figure out*). Actually, Galadriel's speech after she refuses the ring suggests Elves are weaker there. "I will diminish, and go into the West."

 

This suggests to the viewer that the Elves don't care, they're leaving, screw everybody, and in the end after Sauron consolidates Middle-Earth he's not going to stay put. Unless they're hiding a spaceship, they're even more screwed.

 

Really, they ought to have done everything in their power to help. They didn't, even with the token force they sent to Helm's Deep. But at least that put them in the ring. Without this, elves are just buttheads.

 

 

* The movies and the books represent two distinct narratives, however the books are originally presented without reams of indexed information and within their own context Elves come off pretty poorly. We're told they're cool, and mysterious, and good, and nifty, and blah blah blah - and rarely shown any of it. IMO, this is a critical failure of narrative - one which is finally corrected on film. It shows that while they're still aloof, and doubtful anything can be done, and seriously not enthused about the plan - they are at least willing to show up and do something.

 

I just don't feel that "going into the west" is sufficient explanation or reasoning for the elves. It's presented, but it's not given much clarity (until, that is, the hapless enthusiast becomes a scholar of the Silmarillon). The books would have benefitted from a tighter narrative, but the films absolutely required it. That's why I insist that the elves at Helm's Deep had to happen, it's crucial to the entire form. Without it, we're left with a gigantic crater of a plothole.

 

 

** A second example of a seemingly minor change that alters the whole can be found in Aliens. When the scenes with the autoguns were removed, the story held together - until you thought about it. How the hell did Ripley get into the hive without Om Nom Nom? You can gloss over it, you can pretend it's not a problem, and still enjoy the movie. A lot of people might not even notice. But with the scene back in, it all adds up. She could walk up to the Queen because all her drones are accounted for by what the marines kill and all the ones the robot guns grind up. There weren't many left.

 

*** The most egregious example of "need outside references for crap to make sense" and the biggest failure of it, is in the Star Wars prequels. God, it sickens me when people tell me General Grievous is better if you read X, Y, and Z. Or watch show B. I paid to watch a movie, not embark on a research project. If it cannot be told as a contained story, it's an awful story. Everything within the context of the presented narrative must make sense on its own, leaving additional material as non-critical options to explore if a person wants more.

 

This is why Helm's Deep in the movies helps a lot, because it adds that necessary structure to the whole and keeps it together. It retains the essence of the Elves leaving the world for the age of man, but it adds a nobility to it rather than cowardly omission. They say "well, we'll help. We'll do this. Because if we do this, then you'll succeed here." And the defeat of Saruman goes a long way. Then they can say the rest is up to men to sort out (including unifying their forces), and that the final outcome rests on their courage which is necessary to inherit the earth, and they lose nothing. And going into the west with man victorious makes elves plenty safer than if it's Sauron. Basically, the elves help give man a fair shot. It's a crucial element, IMO (and may have been accidental, just the result of "wouldn't it be cool if . . . ") Nevertheless, I think if you pull that string out quite a lot unravels in the movie narrative.

[pcktlnt]

Allow me to just say this, and I accept all consequences that come with it - The Lord of the Rings books put me to sleep. Literally. It took me three months to finish The Two Towers because every time I picked it up I fell asleep within 10 minutes. Return of the King took me almost a year, for the same reason.

 

They're epic fantasy and a great story once you get through them all, but they bore the crap out of me. In my opinion, about half of each book could have been cut without significantly impacting the overall story. Too much time was spent making the world have a complete history and delving into description that the pacing suffered greatly for it. Sometimes it seemed as though entire chapters could have been summed up into just a handful of sentences, and there were times where I would actually forget bits that I had just recently read because of such a long diversion into the unnecessary.

 

But I'm willing to accept that my reason for disliking the books is also the reason that so many people enjoy them so much. They like that he built an entire, fully-fleshed, world for them to get lost in. Which is fine. There are some things that I'm a bit of the same way about. Tolkien's writing style and I don't mix well.

You're not the only one out there who has fallen asleep reading the LotR books. I have attempted to read the first book 7 times...each time I have fallen asleep. I am still on page 1. I loved the Hobbit, but just cannot get into the first book of his trilogy. (I love to read when I have time and will normally read an hour before bedtime, this is bad because if a book holds my attention, I will stay up until 5-6 am or whenever the sun comes up that breaks my concentration).

[buglips*the*goblin]

I had no trouble reading the books, actually. I found them a tad self-indulgent, but overall pretty easy reads and a good tale. The issues I have with them mostly come down to three things:

 

1. It was designed as one book, then chopped into three. The transition between parts is therefore a bit lacking (also corrected by the movies, giving the first part a better climax)

 

2. They're self-indulgent. Forgivable given their genesis as a story Tolkien made up mostly for his own kicks and his family, rather than as a professional commercial writer, but nevertheless this is a salient point. The worst effect of this has been to make this a trend in fantasy lit rather than an aberration. Tolkien's other skills helped pull it off, but imitation of this worst quality is why most fantasy literature reads like fanfiction.

 

3. The whole needed another draft. Tolkien by his own admission wrote slowly, and he juggled an awful lot and made it work - but the book(s) needed another go-through.

 

I consider the movies to operate on two planes: an alternate narrative that adapts to the requirements of its new form, and also as the necessary additional draft to tidy up the narrative a bit.

 

(The opening prologue of the films as narrated by Galadriel stands as, I think, the best example of how to do a prologue right in any form. Everything you need to know is presented neatly, and the transition between that and 'concerning hobbits' works very well. Instead of trying to piece stuff together, you've already had the primer and can indulge in the slow opening.)

 

 

 

ETA: Naturally, I don't expect everybody to agree with my views and people should certainly feel free to disagree with them in part or in whole - but nobody can say I haven't given the matter considerable thought.

Edited April 29, 2013 by buglips*the*goblin

[redambrosia]

The one thing I disliked about An Unexpected Journey was the frigging Radgergast on his six-rabbit open sleigh scene.

 

Oh, it was a decent enough concept. By why, oh why, did he keep the wargs going in circles and not just leg it away from the dwarves? I know he's the prototypical Burner and probably has a bad sense of direction, but still!

 

 

I really liked bringing Azog into the story. It links the past to the present and provides a recuring threat, and otherwise the Battle of Five Armies will come out of nowhere. I liked playing up Thorins xenophobia. I loved the White Concil scene, and I absolutely adored the musical bits (Bend the Forks and Crack the Plates!). But, and I say this as someone who has more friends working on LOTR and The Hobbit than he can easily count (seriously, here in NZ the national sport is to stay behind after a Peter Jackson movie and spot the people you know in the credits : ), he's in desperate need of an editor who can stand up to him and say 'No, Peter, this doesn't need to be here'.

 

 

Oh, I know he loves the source material. And I loved the films, despite thinking they're overlong without going to the Extended Version releases. But they've got flaws, big ones.

 

To address Buglips comments about elves: they're passing into the West. They're immortal, they've seen this play out time and time again and the last time this happened, effectively yesterday for an elf, a human threw away the chance to end this evil in the world. Why would they fight for humans again, when Valinor awaits them? Especially the way they protrayed Elronds doubts in the film!

 

Oh, it's a powerful moment. And I get what you're saying. But one of the central themes to Tolkein's work is that a new age is dawning, and that the elves are leaving Middle-Earth. Them allying with Men undercuts that a little.

 

Not enough for me to dislike it, but it's a little jarring with the sense that, well, Winter is coming to the elves. They are the past, Men are the future.

 

 

 

I really like all the music scenes in The Hobbit. It showed a side of the books that was sadly underrepresented in the LotR films, the poems and music. Sam standing up before the gates of Mordor to sing the Oliphant song. The bath song in Frodo's house on the edge of the Shire. Unfortunately on the soundtrack for the film they cut those songs short

 

And, frankly, Elrond was portrayed as a dick in the movies. Bitter and xenophobic. He wasn't that way at all in the books. He was sad, yes (who wouldn't be after living that long), but he didn't begrudge humans their place and he wasn't unwilling to help. He also didn't try to send his daughter away or stop her from marrying Aragorn, though he was sad to be parted from her.

 

I think it would have helped protray the elves better if they had shown the rest of the Rangers with the sons of Elrond, who were bitter enemies of orcs, as well as the march of Lothlorian and the elves of Mirkwood against the stronghold of the Necromancer. They weren't sitting on their thumbs during the last battles, they were out fighting, but not with Gondor. After all, the dwarves didn't send a legion of dwarves down, but once can assume they were still quite busy.

[Caffiene]

My least favorite moments in the movies were shield surfing Legolas and Mumakil slaying Legolas.

I agree with you there!

 

Those two, plus Denethor the flaming marathon runner.

[Sanael]

Ooooh boy. Teach me to read long threads when I get out of bed. I have 15 minutes to type this before I leave for work, let's see what I can make happen.

 

First: I love the LotR movies. I hate a lot of their differences from the books, but in the watching I try to avoid comparisons, and it's wonderful. After watching is the time for spirited soapboxing.

 

Aside: Thanks, Buglips, for bringing Aliens into the conversation. Alien is one of my top three of all time movies, and Aliens, though different in sooo many ways, holds a special place in my heart as one of the better available sequels. (For the curious, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind and the third rotates; in my current mood it's likely Akira.)

 

Second: My major problem with the LotR movies is one of focus. The books allow us to see all of the fellowship as heroes. I see it as an exploration of what heroism can be (an often pedantic, generally self-indulgent exploration, but there it is). The movies chose to focus on Aragorn, Sam and (for the life of me I can't understand why) Legolas as heroes, while making everyone else vehicles for heroism. Quick points (low on time):

 

-Boromir is a classic tragic hero in the books. He's not changed much in the movies, but thank god Sean Bean can play the sympathetic gonnabiteitsoon guy (does he play anything else?), so well, because his writing didn't help the cause much.

 

-Gimli is a strong, independent character, in search of a conflict to dive into in the books. His backstory is excised from the movies (don't care that we learn about his father in The Hobbit; that didn't exist at the time of release, and, dear god I'm quoting Buglips, a movie is not a research project), so we know nothing of his personal quests and he's reduced to a sidekick for an elf and an apparent (quiet and reserved) madman.

 

-Legolas had to be an action hero in the movie. Why, I don't know, but whatever. In the books, he becomes one of my favorite characters as it becomes apparent that he has sacrificed so much, unlike many of his kin, to be a part of the Fellowship. The elves have a chance at a better world (they think; we don't explore if it's true) by leaving this one. But Legolas chooses to stay. By including the elves at Helm's Deep (a scene I love in the movies, BUT...), Jackson ensures that Legolas' primary heroic mode no longer exists, so he has to include bullpucky like stairsurfing and mumakil surfing and plot surfing and plotwise-bulletproofing to make him worth anything to the group. Blecch.

 

-Merry and Pip, without the Scouring of the Shire (my least favorite cut, because of this; Merry and Pip are, hands down, my favorite members of the books' fellowship), become nothing more than bystanders. We watch Denethor go nuts, not because it is a personal tragedy to a Hobbit who has chosen to stand beside men, but because it makes Aragorn seem that much more awesome when he ascends to the throne. We don't join the ranks of men because we see the honour and sacrifice in doing so, but because we happen to be there, and hey, there's pipeweed. Blecch. No Scouring? No ultimate closure for our Hobbit Heroes.

 

-Sam is still a hero in the movies, but primarily because we feel sorry for him. Frodo is a vehicle for Sam's Great Burden of Loyalty, and not a hero in his own right. Frodo makes no decisions in the movies; he is set on a path and remains on it, and the fact that it's a dangerous path doesn't change the fact that Frodo is acting like every other damn hobbit ever: "one foot in front of the other, dootdedoot." Stubbornness often gets things done, but it isn't really heroic. Sam comes off much better, because he really, truly, looks around himself from time to ttime, realizes the crapsack world he's in, and follows his friend as a protector and sounding board anyway, not because it's the road before him, but because it's the right thing to do. Frodo? Blecch.

 

-Aragorn is also an action hero, and oh, look, he has a love interest. Arwen, actually, ranks up there with the Scouring as my least favorite change. But whatever. I wish we saw that Aragorn comes from a long line of Kingly Men in the movies, but it wasn't a huge deal to me...

 

OK, running out odf steam. To summarize: The books, though you have to slog through a lot to get there, explore several different types of hero. Everyone in the fellowship has a chance to shine. The movies reduce several characters to simple tropes in an effort to elevate a few artificially.

 

Also, I like DS9, but I hate Sisko. Quark and Odo have the best scenes.

 

I look forward to reading your responses today, but expect to be unable to respond. Please troll accordingly.

 

Godspeed, all.