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Spongey Bones models?


Eilif
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When I first found out what Bones was (after I had pledged into this, doh!), I went out and bought some. I got the skeletal spearmen. They say you don't need to prime, so I didn't. Slathered P3 Menoth Base on the skeleton and let it dry. Then I proceeded to fold him in half several times, much like Kaladrax's horn there. The paint showed NO signs of cracking, flaking, or wear at all. I don't think this "spongy" material will hold paint any less effectively than the harder stuff.

 

I imagine if you actually prime the figure, especially with spray primer, you might see some flaking if you bend it like that. But if you just apply paint like recommended, I don't foresee an issue.

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The guys from Dakkadakka talk about it being soft like a sponge, but not necessarily compressible. Gimme a sec to find the post...

 

Ah, right. From here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1650/464802.page

 

 

 

Kally's tail and body were really rigid, then his head and tail are pillows, with legs in between. Some other models are like that too, like one of my Dark Elves, the sorcerer looking one, is like made out of cloth. I can get her extremities to move by breathing really hard on her...

 

So soft and flubbery, like fresh boiled Bones. That's a problem, and one that needs to be looked into, but on the other hand you can probably stiffen it with pins relatively easily. I think Mr. Lips has it on the head, it's likely a batch of the plastic with the wrong mix of plasticiser. I likely wouldn't use the superglue idea - exoskeletons wouldn't work terribly well. Stiffening with an endoskeleton will work better, I think, and won't affect paint adhesion.

 

It would probably be good if we could get a Reaper rep to say whether or not they're aware of the issue, and whether it's by design or not. I can easily see some of the complex molds requiring softer plastic to release properly, and we may be getting concerned over nothing,

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I imagine if you actually prime the figure, especially with spray primer, you might see some flaking if you bend it like that. But if you just apply paint like recommended, I don't foresee an issue.

 

I'd imagine that thinning your paints will produce the same results too; less bonding agents in the layer of paint would seem to make it more likely to flake, rather than flex with the Bones material. I'll be interested to see what happens with my Kaladrax model, as I intend to use it frequently for dungeon crawl events, meaning mine will probably see a lot more use and abuse than the normal model that gets painted and sits in the case/on the shelf.

 

~v

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I imagine if you actually prime the figure, especially with spray primer, you might see some flaking if you bend it like that. But if you just apply paint like recommended, I don't foresee an issue.

 

I'd imagine that thinning your paints will produce the same results too; less bonding agents in the layer of paint would seem to make it more likely to flake, rather than flex with the Bones material. I'll be interested to see what happens with my Kaladrax model, as I intend to use it frequently for dungeon crawl events, meaning mine will probably see a lot more use and abuse than the normal model that gets painted and sits in the case/on the shelf.

 

~v

Good point - though if you're thinning your paints on the basecoat without priming you're in for a rough ride anyways.

 

 

The guys from Dakkadakka talk about it being soft like a sponge, but not necessarily compressible. Gimme a sec to find the post...

 

Ah, right. From here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1650/464802.page

 

 

Kally's tail and body were really rigid, then his head and tail are pillows, with legs in between. Some other models are like that too, like one of my Dark Elves, the sorcerer looking one, is like made out of cloth. I can get her extremities to move by breathing really hard on her...

 

So soft and flubbery, like fresh boiled Bones. That's a problem, and one that needs to be looked into, but on the other hand you can probably stiffen it with pins relatively easily. I think Mr. Lips has it on the head, it's likely a batch of the plastic with the wrong mix of plasticiser. I likely wouldn't use the superglue idea - exoskeletons wouldn't work terribly well. Stiffening with an endoskeleton will work better, I think, and won't affect paint adhesion.

 

It would probably be good if we could get a Reaper rep to say whether or not they're aware of the issue, and whether it's by design or not. I can easily see some of the complex molds requiring softer plastic to release properly, and we may be getting concerned over nothing,

Well Bryan did say in another thread that the fact that Wyrmgear's wings are much stiffer (like styrene stiff) was intentional. So it may be quite possible that this is intentional.

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i'm guessing it is intentional. i have Cthulhu and with a head that complex i'm guessing they went with a softer mix to make it possible to cast. personally i like it. his tenticals are great at holding miniatures for devouring. also his head stays in place well enough that when my player's fight it i will just place the head on the water and say it's a monstrous squid. then if it takes damage it will rise up and i will put it's head on it's body.

 

also i intend to paint it mostly with an pair brus so hopefully it will not be too weak against my brush.

 

i tried boiling the Wyrm gear's wings. i was not able to make it work.

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Generally it is believed, the softness of the model means that it does not hold the detail of the molds very well. From the Kaladrax side of things I think that the details on the model are very soft anyway. The tail is especially weak on any crisp edges for a spiked tail. Nothing is going to be impaled on those. Clubbed to death maybe. Compared to the solid detail on the Demons models Kaladrax seems like a toy I would buy at Michaels.

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I am still not sure what the problem is, unless the "spongey" parts don't spring back to their normal shape.

 

The problem is that while some flex is ok, and bones is great at holding paint, at a certain point of bend paint adhesion (to the model and to itself) is compromised.

 

If the model is spongey or rubbery enough that that degree of bend occurs through regular game handling then that's a problem.

 

I dip and varnish my models, so I don't have to worry about gripping from the base. If I pick up a model and it flexes enough that the paint is damaged, then something is wrong. I'm not worried about Reaper making good if I get a spongey model. They have always had great customer service and I know they'll take care of me. However that doesn't change the fact that spongey models are unacceptable -and rightly so- for many of us.

Edited by Eilif
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While the picture doesn't illustrate the amount of force necessary to produce those bends (even if it is little, that's not much precise quantification) the ability of the piece to flex in that manner is precisely what I would expect from the parts shown as bent.

 

Moreover, to address the flexibility vs. paint issue: we should remember that the primary mechanism in paint flaking is not the flexibility of the paint, but instead the strength of the bond of the paint to the surface. Assuming that the basic chemcial properties of the reportedly softer Bones remain relatively constant, then we could expect a softer piece should exhibit a greater degree of (not visible to the naked eye) porousness which should aid adherence rather than hinder it.

 

The flubbery "blows in the wind" report of some minis may be an outstanding issue, we'll see, but Kaladrax looks right based on what I've seen so far.

 

 

Also, while I intend to test the noted minis as soon as I get some to test, I will note that tests regarding the durability of the paint to resist bending, even extreme bending, or other tortures have been done. While I cannot speak for Kaladrax his own august self, I can speak for the skeletons, flits, unicorns, orcs, goblins, ogres, trolls, bugbears, and spiders I have mangled post-painting.

 

Zero of these showed any flaking even under arduous flexing and twisting. Zero. Paints tested include Reaper Pro Paint, Coat D'Arms, Reaper Master Series, and old Ral Partha - which is a significant spectrum of different formulas. I consider this conclusive evidence that flexibility as it pertains to adhesion is a dead issue. I will re-evaluate this stance if presented with compelling evidence to the contrary.

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I'll worry about it when we see a painted one losing it's paint during normal gaming use. As it is, if you painted it, pulled the jaw back like and it lost some paint all you'd really prove is "don't pull the jaw back like that".

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I did have a version of "Sir Forescale" that I picked up at the paint and take last year at Origins 2012 that had a bent sword . I kept over-bending the sword tryting to get it to stay straight; eventually the paint cracked and started to flake off. Once I got home I heated the blade and straightened it permanently.

 

For really floppy parts, I use acrylic paint sold for lexan polycarbonite RC car bodies. The paint is very thin and flexible, and is designed to stand up to such use and abuse. The only difficulty is that you cannot thin it with water for the initial application to the Bones; it will puddle and pool like other acrylic paint does when you don't wash the figure first. After the initial coat dries, you can treat it like any other acrylic paint.

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I'll worry about it when we see a painted one losing it's paint during normal gaming use. As it is, if you painted it, pulled the jaw back like and it lost some paint all you'd really prove is "don't pull the jaw back like that".

 

I suspect Kaladrax could take it. I bent one of my spider's legs both directions to the limit with no problem. The only susceptibility Bones have, when painted as directed (cleaned with soap and water, undiluted basecoat, no primer) is some edge wear. This is still pretty uncommon and significantly more robust than with metals. The only reason I've seen it is that my hamfisted players took "durable" to mean "indestructible" and treated some of the poor figures badly (scraping an orc on his face across the game board, for example).

 

Anybody who experiences issue with paint who does not paint the bones according to the method above can certainly not blame Reaper because they failed to follow directions. So if your paint flakes because you used primer, or a diluted basecoat, or some other arcane alchemical method, that's a user-end failure not a material failure.

 

 

Apologies for the multiple sequential posts that will later be merged.

 

I just wanted to add that I am always happy to subject my Bones to reasonable experiments (i.e. not soldering irons or lighting them on fire) in order to either find and quantify legitimate issues that require an addressing, or to prove out their durability where questions arise. As soon as I have my Kaladrax, since he's my first project anyway, I will happily put some paint on his head and take pictures of him being bent out of shape.

 

That may be a couple of weeks yet, but I will state right now that I'm feeling very confident he can take it.

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I checked my Cthulhu and my Giants this morning, I do not have Kaladrax.

 

Cthulhu's head is as rigid as any of my bones minis. The tentacles are as bendy as you should expect from thin Bonesium.

 

No unusual softness in my Giants. The spears on the ladies are a bit bendy, but not more than I'd expect from Bones.

 

Maybe I got lucky, but it speaks against the theory that if some parts are too soft that it's on purpose.

 

EDIT: typos

Edited by The Inner Geek
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Primarily the problem we have here is trying to eliminate Bones unfamiliarity as a variable. People who've played with them report no observable difference, but other people say certain parts are softer than other parts. This is in itself also not conclusive, as this variance could be accounted for by low numerical instance of the possible problem.

 

The issue I see with the anecdotes so far is that it might not actually be that Kaladrax's head is softer but that the other parts may be harder. His head might actually be completely normal for Bonesium, but other parts are strengthened or seem tougher (he is, after all, the biggest of his kind).

 

That's not to dismiss any of the claims we're seeing, just to note that it is a variable in play we have to account for before we start working this as a problem. Reaper's going to be plenty busy running down shipping errors as is, and we should be sure this is an issue, and not normal behaviour, before we burden them with correcting this as well. Otherwise we're taking time away from error sorting to deal with a non-problem.

 

I remain open to the idea that there might be something going on here, but I urge everybody to be vigorous in trying to run down exactly what's going on before we conclude it's something Reaper needs to address.

 

Sound cool to everyone?

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