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Spongey Bones models?


Eilif
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I'm with Buglips on this one. "This new material doesn't behave like I expect!" is not actually a legitimate complaint warranting refunds, returns, or indeed any action at all on Reaper's part. I am pretty much convinced that this is intentional, and unless someone can actually show that it is a problem, and not just different than they're used to, I don't see any reason to get upset about it.

 

Also, keep in mind that you can bend a metal figure's spear into a U-shape; it just wouldn't spring back!

 

The guys from Dakkadakka talk about it being soft like a sponge, but not necessarily compressible. Gimme a sec to find the post...

 

Ah, right. From here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1650/464802.page

 

 

 

Kally's tail and body were really rigid, then his head and tail are pillows, with legs in between. Some other models are like that too, like one of my Dark Elves, the sorcerer looking one, is like made out of cloth. I can get her extremities to move by breathing really hard on her...

 

So soft and flubbery, like fresh boiled Bones. That's a problem, and one that needs to be looked into, but on the other hand you can probably stiffen it with pins relatively easily. I think Mr. Lips has it on the head, it's likely a batch of the plastic with the wrong mix of plasticiser. I likely wouldn't use the superglue idea - exoskeletons wouldn't work terribly well. Stiffening with an endoskeleton will work better, I think, and won't affect paint adhesion.

 

It would probably be good if we could get a Reaper rep to say whether or not they're aware of the issue, and whether it's by design or not. I can easily see some of the complex molds requiring softer plastic to release properly, and we may be getting concerned over nothing,

Again, pillows and sponges do not act flubbery. If what they are referring to is genuinely that the plastic is plastic, then... that's a non-issue. It's supposed to bend. In fact, that's a major selling point and part of what makes it such an excellent and durable gaming mini.

(And I don't think it's the wrong mix of plasticiser, just a different mix.)

 

I imagine if you actually prime the figure, especially with spray primer, you might see some flaking if you bend it like that. But if you just apply paint like recommended, I don't foresee an issue.

 

I'd imagine that thinning your paints will produce the same results too; less bonding agents in the layer of paint would seem to make it more likely to flake, rather than flex with the Bones material. I'll be interested to see what happens with my Kaladrax model, as I intend to use it frequently for dungeon crawl events, meaning mine will probably see a lot more use and abuse than the normal model that gets painted and sits in the case/on the shelf.

 

~v

Given that Reaper's instructions are to neither prime your figures nor thin your basecoat, I think we're safe on both counts.

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Primarily the problem we have here is trying to eliminate Bones unfamiliarity as a variable. People who've played with them report no observable difference, but other people say certain parts are softer than other parts. This is in itself also not conclusive, as this variance could be accounted for by low numerical instance of the possible problem.

 

The issue I see with the anecdotes so far is that it might not actually be that Kaladrax's head is softer but that the other parts may be harder. His head might actually be completely normal for Bonesium, but other parts are strengthened or seem tougher (he is, after all, the biggest of his kind).

 

That's not to dismiss any of the claims we're seeing, just to note that it is a variable in play we have to account for before we start working this as a problem. Reaper's going to be plenty busy running down shipping errors as is, and we should be sure this is an issue, and not normal behaviour, before we burden them with correcting this as well. Otherwise we're taking time away from error sorting to deal with a non-problem.

 

I remain open to the idea that there might be something going on here, but I urge everybody to be vigorous in trying to run down exactly what's going on before we conclude it's something Reaper needs to address.

 

Sound cool to everyone?

buglips,

 

I realize that I am new to the forum and thereby by standards of posting my opinion would be suspect. There is nothing I can do about that.

 

While I genuinely agree that it would be most helpful to be sure there is a problem before raising an alarm, I think it is unfair to dismiss the posts as the result of people not being familiar with Bones. Some may be, but the descriptions of the "spongey" pieces are pretty consistent and, maybe because I have felt them first hand I can say they match my experience.

 

Having actually compared the "spongey" pieces to the rest of the Bones figures in a V+5 (decent sample size, I'd say), I can safely say that--even on a sliding scale--these pieces are outliers in their degree of flexibility as compared to the rest. And, while it might be argued that this is within the normal range of aberration for Bonesium, that does not mean it is in the range acceptable (either to customers or Reaper) anymore than a normal range of dyed jeans might include "stone wash" to "dark blue." (If you expect to receive and the seller expects to deliver dark blue jeans, then some is wrong if the manufacturer delivers stone wash jeans to you on the seller's behalf.) In fact, I think it is fair to expect the normal range of Bonesium is pretty well established by the Bones range already on the market (prior to this Kickstarter)--of which I have handled, as have some of the posters--and the "spongey" items under discussion don't appear to match any figures in that range. (I will end by concluding that Reaper is the expert here and can quickly make this determination, not us.)

 

Moreover, it may be true as you speculate that the number of models that came with such "spongey" pieces may be a "low numerical instance," but that does not eliminate the fact that they are an "instance" nonetheless; an "instance" of a fly in my soup, as it were, while low is still not acceptable. Really, this argument about the number of instances is more appropriate to determining whether there is a production problem, but is not whether--in spite a completely normal production run--there are some defective parts.

 

Ultimately, I think it is up to Reaper--not us--to look at the pieces in question and decide if these pieces are what they intended to be delivered to their customers. And, I absolutely agree that Reaper is rather busy right now, but I don't agree that we should not bring this to their attention as a result. Moreover, I don't think raising this issue in any way impinges Reaper's stellar reputation for product or service. This Kickstarter was bound to have problems--the production numbers here were huge--and, if this is one of them, I am sure Reaper will resolve them in time and as appropriate.

 

TL,DR: buglips, it is not really doing anyone--esp. Reaper--a favor to dismiss this matter out of hand. Let Reaper investigate and decide when they have a chance. I am sure this will all work out and like you I *love* Reaper for their amazing and hard work.

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I'm with Buglips on this one. "This new material doesn't behave like I expect!" is not actually a legitimate complaint warranting refunds, returns, or indeed any action at all on Reaper's part.

 

Ah, if it does not behave like Reaper expected, then I am sure Reaper would appreciate knowing. Don't you? Plus, actually, if my expectations are reasonably grounded in the original line of Bones and I sunk a a few hundred dollars on those expectations, I think it perfectly reasonable to have my concerns addressed. Remember, we are not talking about subjective expectations but rather expectations based on familiarity with an existing product.

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I'm not dismissive. I'm in fact quite open to the idea. But what we need is more information. Throughout the Bones line's evolution in the past few months, leading up to fulfillment, testing of the material has been largely user-derived.

 

This makes sense, in exactly the same way game developers having a public beta makes sense. We will find flaws, problems, and tricks Reaper cannot, by virtue of manpower, find as quickly.

 

That means we, as a community, have the power to break down this issue succinctly, compare notes across a wide sample of the figures, and conduct tests that will provide information to Reaper if there is indeed a problem. "Spongey" is not an actionable descriptor. A list of tests done by users provides much more detail to allow Reaper to determine exactly what went wrong if something went wrong.

 

Moreover, the fact that thus far the people reporting "it's normal for me" tend to be people who have been vigorously testing the material. I was very careful to point out that this is not conclusive on its own, but it does mean we have a variable that must be addressed. Your complaint may indeed be quite valid. At this point we don't have enough information to know.

 

Now the question here is: do you want a timely solution to sorting this out?

 

If that answer is yes, then the only way to assure that is for us to vigorously eliminate easy explanation variables and narrow down the precise source of the problem. Reaper does not have the time nor manpower to address this issue in any timely manner right now, and may not even have enough information to go on as of yet.

 

That's where we can help. You, me, everybody else. The minute I have a Kaladrax, I'm putting him through boot camp. I'm happy to conduct any reasonable test on the material and post results. I encourage others to do likewise. If you're worried paint might not hold, put some paint on and find out.

 

We can have this figured out in 30 days, or we can wait around while Reaper tries to divine what "spongey" means and whether these are isolated cases or the material is normal.

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Well since this thread is heavy with speculation and second hand accounts, and light with actual first hand experience, I decided to weigh in with some.

 

I took Kaladrax's much maligned head and gave it a good soap and water wash.

 

I took P3's Umbral Umber and thinned it with some 70% Isopropyl Alcohol.

 

I sprayed the trouble spots on the head (horns and jaw).

 

I proceeded to bend and twist them in ways that no player or owner should ever do.

 

The paint shows no signs of flaking, cracking, or rubbing off.

 

kalat1.jpg

 

kalat2.jpg

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I appreciate the reports of "spongey" but the truth is all I care about is "does it hold paint?" and "does it keep its shape?"

 

I'm not going to be poking or proding the miniature particularly once its finished being painted, so I really don't care how it "feels".

 

This whole thing sounds like a false flaw to me. You need to decide if the way it "feels" is affecting the way it performs its intended task, if it is not there is no flaw, if it is then you are good to go with complaints. So far I'm not seeing any evidence that the ablity to perform the intended task has been inhibited by the models not "feeling" right to some customers.

 

There is clearly some variation in the hardness of the plastic, possibly by design or just different batches, but unless its making the model unable to do its job I don't see an actual problem.

Edited by ObsidianCrane
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Yes, Kally's head and tail have a different feel to them; softer and definitely more flexible. I noticed this on the one that I assembled back at ReaperCon for the table out front (between Qwyksilver and me, we probably assembled 95% of the multipart models for that), and it also holds true for the three I just received in the mail. I found my C'thulhu head to be exactly the way The Inner Geek described his; the head itself is very firm, and only the tentacles are very flexible. I also have the majority of the giants; all of mine feel like normal Bones material to me (nothing like Kally's head and tail).

 

Trystangst, thanks for conducting that experiment on your Kally, and for posting the pics. As soon as I can get some of these clean, assembled, and off to my painter, I'll get some pics up of the painted Bones (hopefully side-by-side with metal versions of the same models) for comparison.

 

~v

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Looking at the pics of kaladrax's head being bent all I can think of is - 'Yup that's exactly what I can do to my pair of painted and sealed Bonesium Trolls." I literally bend them flat to the tabletop (and beyond sometimes) both to the front and back never had a crack and I show it off to anyone who even looks at the damn things ;)

 

That said I haven't gotten any of my pledge minis yet but so far it doesn't look like a cause for concern to me.

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Primarily the problem we have here is trying to eliminate Bones unfamiliarity as a variable. People who've played with them report no observable difference, but other people say certain parts are softer than other parts. This is in itself also not conclusive, as this variance could be accounted for by low numerical instance of the possible problem.

 

The issue I see with the anecdotes so far is that it might not actually be that Kaladrax's head is softer but that the other parts may be harder. His head might actually be completely normal for Bonesium, but other parts are strengthened or seem tougher (he is, after all, the biggest of his kind).

 

That's not to dismiss any of the claims we're seeing, just to note that it is a variable in play we have to account for before we start working this as a problem. Reaper's going to be plenty busy running down shipping errors as is, and we should be sure this is an issue, and not normal behaviour, before we burden them with correcting this as well. Otherwise we're taking time away from error sorting to deal with a non-problem.

 

I remain open to the idea that there might be something going on here, but I urge everybody to be vigorous in trying to run down exactly what's going on before we conclude it's something Reaper needs to address.

 

Sound cool to everyone?

I disagree.

 

No one who gets a spongey kaladrax head or tail really has true "inexperience" with Bones because they've got the other body segments (if they ordered kaladrax) and 200+ other bones to compare it too. That's a sample group that almost no one pre-kickstarter had access to. If you've got a bones KS box, you've got more than enough samples to determine whether a given example is satisfactory, regardless of what someone on a forum tells you might be a "non-problem"

 

Further, I realize that you love Reaper, but it's silly to expect the customers to worry about being a "Burden" to reaper or "run down exactly what's going on". They are the customer and the onus is on Reaper.

 

If you get 200 Bones and there are a few that are not like the others, and don't meet your expectations then call Reaper and get the situation rectified.

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Except that if those expectations are because you don't understand that it's normal for the model (not all Bones are the same), and that all of them will be like it, then what have you accomplished?

 

So far every report (see Shakandara's post above) suggests every Kaladrax is like this. The more people who report Kaladrax being like this, the more likely it's intentional (especially if the Reapercon example was the same).

 

Now that's important stuff the community can figure out before bothering Reaper one bit.

 

Or do you really think having several thousand people email them over an item that's perfectly normal is the better option to pursue first? I'm not trying to be rude here, but that strikes me as pretty silly when we can figure most of it out on our own once enough are in stream and we can compare notes.

 

ETA: Heck, already we've managed to establish two things pretty clear:

 

1. It looks like they're all this way.

 

2. Paint durability is not an issue.

 

Mission accomplished, that was my point.

 

 

ETA: And it's not just Reaper I'm thinking about when I talk about "burden". We already know there's going to be a pile of errors to sort out after delivey just on the raw numbers. Replacements, missing bits, etc. To throw an additional demand into the system especially if that demand is not warranted can only delay solving those issues.

 

Therefore, it seems logical to me that we should establish whether or not it's an issue in the first place before adding it to the ticker. I don't see what's unreasonable about that.

Edited by buglips*the*goblin
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Primarily the problem we have here is trying to eliminate Bones unfamiliarity as a variable. People who've played with them report no observable difference, but other people say certain parts are softer than other parts. This is in itself also not conclusive, as this variance could be accounted for by low numerical instance of the possible problem.

 

The issue I see with the anecdotes so far is that it might not actually be that Kaladrax's head is softer but that the other parts may be harder. His head might actually be completely normal for Bonesium, but other parts are strengthened or seem tougher (he is, after all, the biggest of his kind).

 

That's not to dismiss any of the claims we're seeing, just to note that it is a variable in play we have to account for before we start working this as a problem. Reaper's going to be plenty busy running down shipping errors as is, and we should be sure this is an issue, and not normal behaviour, before we burden them with correcting this as well. Otherwise we're taking time away from error sorting to deal with a non-problem.

 

I remain open to the idea that there might be something going on here, but I urge everybody to be vigorous in trying to run down exactly what's going on before we conclude it's something Reaper needs to address.

 

Sound cool to everyone?

I disagree.

 

No one who gets a spongey kaladrax head or tail really has true "inexperience" with Bones because they've got the other body segments (if they ordered kaladrax) and 200+ other bones to compare it too. That's a sample group that almost no one pre-kickstarter had access to. If you've got a bones KS box, you've got more than enough samples to determine whether a given example is satisfactory, regardless of what someone on a forum tells you might be a "non-problem"

 

Further, I realize that you love Reaper, but it's silly to expect the customers to worry about being a "Burden" to reaper or "run down exactly what's going on". They are the customer and the onus is on Reaper.

 

If you get 200 Bones and there are a few that are not like the others, and don't meet your expectations then call Reaper and get the situation rectified.

 

While everyone who gets a Kaladrax and their vampire box and whatever other options may have a greater quantity of bones minis than anyone whos been painting and playing with them over the last year has, I do not think that was Buglips' point. The point is exactly that there are other who have had over a year's time of painting and playing with this new material, so they are in a position to give a considered opinion on whether this behaviour is normal or not.

 

 

Also, the term "Spongey" is not a helpful one for describing the behaviour. When I first read the thread I was fearful of getting minis that were squishy and absorbed water and paint. Describing it as "soft" or "flexible" would have been more accurate from what I've seen.

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I'd also like to note (and yes, my last post was irritable and I apologize for it) that part of the strength of the community on here is our ability to very rapidly identify, isolate, and react to problems. I mean, can you imagine what Painting tips & Advice would look like if every thread had to wait on Anne or Martin to come in and answer? My god, it'd be months waiting.

 

In any system, users will be the first to notice when something goes awry. Therefore, to the best that they can, it is always best and fastest if the community of users can respond to something before kicking it upstairs. It saves time, it saves resources, the community brain is an efficient organism. It's troubleshooting. If something goes wrong and you have to call customer service, the more information you can provide the rep on the phone the faster and more exact your resolution will be. If we find a problem with Kaladrax, the more information we can provide then the faster Reaper can figure out what went wrong. If, say, only some Kaladraxes were like that but others were not. Or if they're all like it. Or if people have noticed other anomlies in the pieces with the issue. Every scrap of information like that leads us more quickly to an affirmative resolution.

 

Kaladrax here is even an example of that in action. Within 2 days we went from identifying a potential problem to working multiple solution paths. Now, yes, if there is an issue it's Reaper's responsiblity to solve it. And, no, it's not our responsiblity to solve it or run it down.

 

But if we can, we can make the whole system work better for everybody involved with a minimal expenditure of effort. And we did, while Reaper was on holiday. Now that's time that won't be taken out of fulfilling the rest of the orders, making fixes for orders that went awry, and we won't have to wait on a resolution.

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Also, the term "Spongey" is not a helpful one for describing the behaviour. When I first read the thread I was fearful of getting minis that were squishy and absorbed water and paint. Describing it as "soft" or "flexible" would have been more accurate from what I've seen.

 

I completely agree with the wrong use of spongy. I thought at first it was soft, squishy, and would not retain it's shape. After reading through and seeing the pictures where it's just bent around and whatnot, I stopped worrying. If only we could change it from "spongey" to what you have suggested, soft and flexible.

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"Soft" and "flexible" fit the standard Bones material description. Looking at the pictures provided, seeing the lower jaw bend open doesn't seem "abnormal" to me. The thickness at that point would be similar to a spear or sword which we all know easily flex & bend when pushed with a finger. So, no big deal, at least to me.

 

If the lower jaw hangs open, as in droops/appears to be falling agape and doesn't hold it's pose, then that is a problem. Not necessarily a problem that Reaper needs to fix though, most can likely fix that with pinning. (Although newbies to the hobby will have problems with that and help to fix the problem should be given to those that need it- however that help would be possible to render.) But it really doesn't look like that's even an issue. From what the pictures show it is typical Bones material behavior.

 

I am curious about the comment I read where the person stated that they can blow on the figure and parts bend. I would think that is a manufacturing problem that should be addressed for later runs. It will be interesting to see what pans out with that observation.

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