[MERGED]CAV? Tell me about it...

[topcyde]

I'm trying to find out what's supposed to be improved with the new CAV:SO. I would prefer to just read and formulate my own opinin that way. It's impossible to find any information anywhere.

[Sergeant_Crunch]

I haven't been able to read all the way through the CAV:SO beta document, and my understanding is that it has changed from what is posted for download anyway. I may be wrong on that last part though. When CAVBOSS started talking about changing back story, moving to 2d6 instead of d10, and implementing ammo tracking I lost interesting in the direction it was going.

[topcyde]

This might come out ignorant, but I am. Who's CAVBOSS?

 

2d6? Couldn't they pick a worse statistical probability system? Oh wait, no they can't! One doesn't exist.

[sethohman]

CAV:SO is what CAVBOSS is calling his version of CAV. Stuck in development for many, many years. No improvements at all, and could be considered a different game altogether or a re-boot, as opposed to an update.

 

CAV 2 is very good, with the MIL-NET changes. You can get the CAV 1 rules cheap online, and that is also a very good game.

 

Some of us old guys have the CAV 1.5 Beta stuff - probably the best version out there.

[Erion]

Some of us old guys have the CAV 1.5 Beta stuff - probably the best version out there.

 

QFT.

 

Also: *Sigh*

[Chrome]

Since we've probably just confused topcyde even more:

 

CAV 1 = original, independent rules by Reaper.

 

CAV 1.5 = nickname given to CAV 2 rules while they were in beta. They took the old CAV rules and re-did them to fit the R.A.G.E. system Reaper had created for Warlord.

 

CAV 2 = the guy who worked on 1.5 left Reaper and a decision was made to rework the rules again. While still using RAGE, CAV 1.5 and 2 played very differently.

 

CAV 2 Mil-Net = a group of fans who licensed CAV from Reaper to handle development of new products. The original intent was that we'd have no control over the CAV 2 core rules, but that changed over time and we ended up making very major changes, including re-balancing all of the datacards. (Search the forums for "RAGE Chronicles") We stopped working on CAV in early '10)

 

CAV:SO (3) = Whooo boy... I usually try and stay away from this, but I'm feeling ornery today, so here's the whole history of the CAV:SO rules, with special thanks to the Internet Way-back Machine.

• Feb 2005 - Talon Games announces a new game called Rogue Legion. See the sidebar.
• Mar 2005 - Talon announces that RL will be available in May.
• Apr 2006 - According to the sidebar on the first page, RL minis are available, but according to this page, the rules still won't be out until 3Q 2006.
• Dec 2007 - TalonJon, known as CAVBOSS here, drops by Mil-Net's forums to announce that he's made a deal with Reaper to use CAV (1?) as the basis for new Rogue Legion rules.
• May 2010 - CAVBoss announces that he's now in charge of the CAV line and that CAV:SO is already done and playtested. It just needs final proof-reading and then will go to the printers and be released in June. (that's the current Talon-games.com site, not a wayback capture) CSO is simply the Rogue Legion rules, switched from 2d6 to d10, with the fluff swapped out.
• May 2010 - despite being at ReaperCon, CAVBoss doesn't do any demos for CSO.
• May 2010 - announcement that some changes are being made to the rules at Reaper's behest.
• June 2010 - announcement that CSO will use 2d6 now, so all of the stats and datacards need to be re-worked. Will no be launched at GenCon in August.
• Aug 2010 - announcement that CSO will launch in early Oct.
• Oct 2010 - announcement that the rules are being changed again. No release date is given.
• Dec 2010 - the latest rules are posted on the forums for playtesting
• Jan 2011 - announcement that the printed rulebook will be available at GAMA in March.
• Mar 2011 - forum post from CAVBoss saying that he did not go to GAMA. He had to make some last minute rule changes at the end of Feb and is finishing them so the book can go to the printers this month.
• Apr 2011 - the latest rules are posted on the forums. These aren't for playtesting, its supposed to be what is going to the printers.
• Apr 2011 - CSO gets a 2 page spread in Casket Works #28. Page 57 says "Pre-order available Spring 2011".
• May 2011 - after weeks of promoting CSO demos @ReaperCon, the person who's supposed to run them doesn't show up, and CAVBoss says he was too busy to give demos. So at Reaper's own convention, nobody plays the game.
• June 2011 - another redraft of the rules are released on the forums
• Aug 2011 - Still no printed rulebook. CSO is demo'ed at GenCon. Only one person comes here afterwards to provide feedback about his experience and it is negative.
• Dec 2011 - after 6 months with no updates about CSO, Reaper announces that they've licensed CAV to a video game company.
• Dec 2011 - 2 days later, CAVBoss posts for the first time since summer to say that he's sorry for being AWOL for so long but that he'd been working on the video game deal. Then he says "Now CAV:SO is not my version of the game...it is Reaper Minis version of the game."
• Dec 2012 - after a year's absence, CAVBoss makes this post that he's totally redoing the rules yet again.
• Sep 2013 - still waiting on that last version of the rules. They were demoed at ReaperCon in May, but CAVBoss hasn't made a post here since April.

I tried to provide links to every thing I could, but a lot of the threads were lost when CAVBoss deleted the CAV forum last year (see the link in the last bullet). All other dates are as accurate as I could be based on conversations I found on other forums.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Chrome

[Jeremy]

I love the internet way back machine. It brings back so many fond memories...

[topcyde]

Thanks for the info chrome. I went back and read some of the stuff the guy has posted. Seems like a self entitled bullstuffter with his head up his elf. No post for 4 months and you're some sort of a brand manager? Sounds like he's up to his usual idiocy.

 

Deleting all the posts from a forum. That's a completely ignorant thing to do. That smacks of "I don't want anyone to be able to go back and quote my past bullstuffs and call me on it." Then piss poor managment skills are all I can attribute to this part of a post from back in apr in the topic "On a More positive note" when he says "The best I can do right now is tell you nothing is set in stone until the final rule book comes out. We will see where we end up." If he's talking about new designs like that, it's a sighn he has no clue what he's doing. Especially if this game has been in development since 2007 based of a design of his from 2005. That's well past the 6 month cycle game developers and designers I've talked to refer. Magic came out almost 20 years ago and changed how game devolpment worked. The lessons are well documented in the graveyard of game companies names. Maybe CAVBOSS should learn to read.

[Froggy the Great]

Regardless of whether our opinions are justified or not, please keep the conversation civil and bereft of character-assassination.

</Moderator>

[Eilif]

Chrome,

Thanks for the timeline! Answered alot of questions, including some I didn't know I had, about the history of CAV.

 

Looking at the history, it seems that the best way to approach CAV is for the minis. Buy them, paint them, love them and then look for a ruleset that lets you play them. CAV:SO might turn out to be a great ruleset, but if it doesn't, there's still a great number of games that you can use them with. I'm going to buy the Bones CAVs when they come out, and if reviews are good, I'll get CAV:SO.

 

That said, I'm not going to be reliant on any one company to provide rules for my choice of rules (or minis). If CAV SO doesn't measure up, then I've got

 

Cav1

Mech Attack

Battletech: Alpha Strike (Just picked this up recently, looks great for mass mech battles)

Gruntz

Or I could go out and pick up

Wardogs

Samurai Robots Battle Royalle (the new game from Ganesha)

 

It'd be nice if the miniatures and rules were updated more often. However, I've found that keeping one's expectations low and willingness to improvise high, is the best way to approach any rulest or line of minis that isn't one of the more popular games.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Eilif

[Watchman]

Is the CAV 1.5 data available?

[Chrome]

Is the CAV 1.5 data available?

 

No.

[General308]

Since we've probably just confused topcyde even more:

 

CAV 1 = original, independent rules by Reaper.

 

CAV 1.5 = nickname given to CAV 2 rules while they were in beta. They took the old CAV rules and re-did them to fit the R.A.G.E. system Reaper had created for Warlord.

 

CAV 2 = the guy who worked on 1.5 left Reaper and a decision was made to rework the rules again. While still using RAGE, CAV 1.5 and 2 played very differently.

 

CAV 2 Mil-Net = a group of fans who licensed CAV from Reaper to handle development of new products. The original intent was that we'd have no control over the CAV 2 core rules, but that changed over time and we ended up making very major changes, including re-balancing all of the datacards. (Search the forums for "RAGE Chronicles") We stopped working on CAV in early '10)

 

CAV:SO (3) = Whooo boy... I usually try and stay away from this, but I'm feeling ornery today, so here's the whole history of the CAV:SO rules, with special thanks to the Internet Way-back Machine.

• Feb 2005 - Talon Games announces a new game called Rogue Legion. See the sidebar.
• Mar 2005 - Talon announces that RL will be available in May.
• Apr 2006 - According to the sidebar on the first page, RL minis are available, but according to this page, the rules still won't be out until 3Q 2006.
• Dec 2007 - TalonJon, known as CAVBOSS here, drops by Mil-Net's forums to announce that he's made a deal with Reaper to use CAV (1?) as the basis for new Rogue Legion rules.
• May 2010 - CAVBoss announces that he's now in charge of the CAV line and that CAV:SO is already done and playtested. It just needs final proof-reading and then will go to the printers and be released in June. (that's the current Talon-games.com site, not a wayback capture) CSO is simply the Rogue Legion rules, switched from 2d6 to d10, with the fluff swapped out.
• May 2010 - despite being at ReaperCon, CAVBoss doesn't do any demos for CSO.
• May 2010 - announcement that some changes are being made to the rules at Reaper's behest.
• June 2010 - announcement that CSO will use 2d6 now, so all of the stats and datacards need to be re-worked. Will no be launched at GenCon in August.
• Aug 2010 - announcement that CSO will launch in early Oct.
• Oct 2010 - announcement that the rules are being changed again. No release date is given.
• Dec 2010 - the latest rules are posted on the forums for playtesting
• Jan 2011 - announcement that the printed rulebook will be available at GAMA in March.
• Mar 2011 - forum post from CAVBoss saying that he did not go to GAMA. He had to make some last minute rule changes at the end of Feb and is finishing them so the book can go to the printers this month.
• Apr 2011 - the latest rules are posted on the forums. These aren't for playtesting, its supposed to be what is going to the printers.
• Apr 2011 - CSO gets a 2 page spread in Casket Works #28. Page 57 says "Pre-order available Spring 2011".
• May 2011 - after weeks of promoting CSO demos @ReaperCon, the person who's supposed to run them doesn't show up, and CAVBoss says he was too busy to give demos. So at Reaper's own convention, nobody plays the game.
• June 2011 - another redraft of the rules are released on the forums
• Aug 2011 - Still no printed rulebook. CSO is demo'ed at GenCon. Only one person comes here afterwards to provide feedback about his experience and it is negative.
• Dec 2011 - after 6 months with no updates about CSO, Reaper announces that they've licensed CAV to a video game company.
• Dec 2011 - 2 days later, CAVBoss posts for the first time since summer to say that he's sorry for being AWOL for so long but that he'd been working on the video game deal. Then he says "Now CAV:SO is not my version of the game...it is Reaper Minis version of the game."
• Dec 2012 - after a year's absence, CAVBoss makes this post that he's totally redoing the rules yet again.
• Sep 2013 - still waiting on that last version of the rules. They were demoed at ReaperCon in May, but CAVBoss hasn't made a post here since April.

I tried to provide links to every thing I could, but a lot of the threads were lost when CAVBoss deleted the CAV forum last year (see the link in the last bullet). All other dates are as accurate as I could be based on conversations I found on other forums.

Darn Chrome you sound like I use to sound when I complained about all the delay's with CAV and CAV 1.5 and CAV 2 stuff. People just thought I wanted CAV to fail But it is frustrating when you see a game you love flounder because nobody will ever follow through with anything isn't it.

[Crusoe the Painter]

Damn, by this point, we should just crowdsource our own rules.

 

Reaper doesn't care as long as it moves figures. Just rename them, cook up some new fluff, a new name, and get rolling.

 

As it is, the existing name has gotten so poisoned, it probably doesn't matter anymore.

[TGP]

Damn, by this point, we should just crowdsource our own rules.

 

Reaper doesn't care as long as it moves figures. Just rename them, cook up some new fluff, a new name, and get rolling.

 

As it is, the existing name has gotten so poisoned, it probably doesn't matter anymore.

 

...crowdsource our own rules...

 

+1

 

Name:

Arthur C. Clark 'subtracted' one letter from IBM and came up with "HAL".

 

CAV minus one letter is: BZU? ...maybe adding one letter: DBW

 

That could stand for a neo Latinism: De Bellis Warmachina (...I think I suggested that already in another thread...) or it could stand for Darn Big Warbots...