Local store dropping reaper

[Last Knight]

 

And since I participated in the Bones KS and will probably participate in the Bones II KS, I have really no need to buy anymore figures

for quite a while, if ever again, so I can see his point.

Whereas I've become a regular customer at my FLGS for the first time since I stopped playing Warmahordes. All because of Bones 1.

[Nocturne]

See, I can vaguely kinda sorta maybe see why with a project that skyrocketed like zombiecide that immediate sales wouldn't be huge though I still think their longer term sales would be about the same. That's speaking as someone who had to buy Zombicide Season 1 through the Season 2 Kickstarter because I'd missed it and couldn't find a copy in local stores.....

 

But for smaller projects that were moderately sucessful or had a smaller scope like Dungon Roll or 12 Realms I would think there would have been little impact on their retail sales. Some for sure, but not so much that dismissing the product entirely isn't anything other than a bitter and silly attempt to deter companies from using kickstarter in the future,.... (and then the manufacturer can't afford to make their product then the distributor has even less stuff to sell and becomes more reliant on a small number of larger manufacturers who they can't get as favourable distribution deal with so their profits shrink and then they go out of business etc etc etc crazy logic path etc)

 

Basically what I'm saying is distributors saw all the trouble that record companies have been having and decided they wanted some of that hurt because adapting to change is for chumps!

Edited September 15, 2013 by Nocturne

[Darsc Zacal]

I can tell you that the majority of people coming into the Reaper booth while I was manning the sign in desk for the paint and take were unfamiliar with the Bones product. Or the first kickstarter.

 

And that's at a major game convention where I would've expected to see the more knowledgable gamer.

 

There's a lot of untapped potential Bones customers still out there.

[Dr.Bedlam]

Well, that's the trouble with being the big dog. You don't WANT to adapt to changes. Changes need to adapt to YOU.

I strongly suspect Inarah may well be on to something with her reply... I've seen WAY too many situations where distributors want to say, "You want X product? Well, okay, but only if you take some Y product with it..."

[Hellcow]

Well, that's the trouble with being the big dog. You don't WANT to adapt to changes. Changes need to adapt to YOU.

 

I strongly suspect Inarah may well be on to something with her reply... I've seen WAY too many situations where distributors want to say, "You want X product? Well, okay, but only if you take some Y product with it..."

 

A friend who also happens to run a very successful FLGS has had this exact same complaint about his past distributors. He could order lots of the hot new items but only if he took the crap the distributor over bought - essentially the distro wanted to make their customers pay for the stupid mistakes the distro did. He has much better distro now but it isn't perfect by any means.

 

For what its worth he got out of the miniature business years ago and focuses on boardgames, RPGs and comics now. He still orders stuff from Reaper for me with zero problems though. This really sounds like a distributor problem rather than a problem with the manufacturers.

[Wren]

Off topic but could someone enlighten a newbie on what all the different roles everyone in question plays?

 

Is the distributor like the middle man?

 

In which case, why is Kickstarter killing them (and local retailers) any more than online shopping has this whole time?

 

Distributors are indeed middlemen.

 

Game companies produce products, which they sell to distributors at something like 40% of MSRP. Distributors carry the products of a number of different companies. Instead of having to be aware of each individual company and making dozens of different orders and so on, a store can review the catalogue of a distributor and order a variety of products from different companies dealing with one salesperson and one order.The store pays between 50-60% of MSRP.

 

The advantage of the distribution system is that although it's become easier with the advent of the internet and such for stores to find out about new companies and games, it's still not very practical to try to order from each individually. The disadvantage is that it adds another layer of costs on, and stores are already having trouble competing with the prices of alternatives like online storefronts and Amazon. The economy shift a few years back also hit game stores pretty hard, and the number of game stores across the nation has dropped significantly in the past 10 years. That means fewer customers for distributors, some of whom have also shut down, and less competition there does allow for less favourable dealings.

 

Distributors are also squeezed out by something like Amazon, since I imagine Amazon buys direct, or a company can market their products on Amazon itself. Distributors have been trying different tactics to attract new store buyers or retain existing customers. There have been some deals with game companies to sell exclusively through one distributor. They often offer stores better rates for larger orders, package deals, or if you want more of this, you have to buy some of that. Those latter two can mean stores end up putting money into stuff that might not sell very well. Distributors take a risk because they have to order well in advance of release, so they have to guess at how popular something is going to be to figure out how much to buy. Buy too little of something popular and everyone freaks out when they can't fill their orders. Buy too much of something that isn't very popular, and you've got money sunk into product that will take years to move (if ever). It's possible that distributors who don't have a lot of ready cash available to restock a popular line, or who allocated limited supplies to their bigger customers, might occasionally tell stores that they are having trouble getting it from the manufacturer to save face.

 

In some respects, Kickstarter bypasses the whole system because it is a direct conduit between creator/company and consumer. Neither distributors nor stores are making any money off of a Kickstarter. (Although some KSes offer retail levels for stores to buy into.) However, Kickstarter is really a thing unto itself, so it's hard to say that's where the story ends and for sure that's going to be bad for distributors and game stores. Companies may not make a big (if any) profit on Kickstarters, instead using them as a way of creating the capital to get a product into the market that will hopefully start to generate profit through the traditional channels in the years to come. And it's hard to know that the marketing factor is necessarily bad, either. I've certainly talked to my fair share of people locally and at conventions who had not heard of Reaper's first Kickstarter and were intrigued and went on to buy Bones to try. With a game like Zombicide, have you sold copies to all the people who are interested in the Kickstarter? Or does your game have a huge marketing advantage because of the KS in that a bunch of people get it at once and introduce it to their friends who go on to buy it later? As opposed to the usual model where games sometimes trickle into community consciousness too slowly to really gain momentum.

 

I don't know that anyone really has the answers yet to what impact is Kickstarter having on the market. Games and projects that I would never imagine selling very well in a retail setting (I worked part time game retail for a couple of years) do amazingly well on Kickstarter. Whenever I think the market must be starting to wear out on big miniature box games or whatever, another project comes along and does half a million dollars worth. Are those self-contained projects, or do some of them go on to sell well in regular channels? Some stores and distributors are assuming the worst, some consumers are assuming the best. It'll be interesting to see how it goes down.

[MonkeySloth]

Very well written Wren.

[ced1106]

Ed Pugh discusses the manufacturer / retailer / distributor chain in his State of the Industry video:

 

 

Essentially, this distribution chain was made in the 1940's when distributors *could* carry every single game on the market. Even long before KS, there were so many game companies and so many different titles, that distributors could no longer do this, essentially undermining their own role as a "one stop shop" for games. Imagine being a games manufacturer -- like Reaper -- and being told by your NOT CUSTOMERS what of your products will and will not be carried by game stores, before even your audience has a chance to see them.

 

IIRC, As far back as 2002, Steve Jackson Games tried direct sales to retailers with GURPS Russia. It failed. However, SJG makes direct sales to consumers with its Warehouse 23 products and e23 electronic sales, showing that SJG could bypass the traditional three-tier system. Now, many game companies, including Reaper, are doing this as well.

 

Personally, I think KS is making further visible the problem of the creaky three-tiered system. I'm sure the OLGS is a much greater threat to retailers, but wasn't a problem for distributors because it was still part of the three-tier system. fwiw, Electronic publication sites like DriveThruRPG and the whole internet (at one time RPGs were only available on paper!) also erode the three-tier system, but don't attract as much attention. I'm sure that when 3D printers become as common as ink jet printers, and home printers become as good as book printers, retailers and distributors will have further problems. (Miniature companies are already giving away complete rulebooks for *free* electronically.)

 

Reaper and other game companies haven't abandoned distributors. Distributors have abandoned them. Pretty obviously, if a distributor demands a 40% discount from a manufacturer before even considering to stock a product (and why do so when Magic and Munchkin are selling so well?), and that manufacturer can't produce a profitable game at this discount, that means the game can't get made. As much as we'd like manufacturers as gate keepers to prevent shoddy games from being made, component costs shouldn't be one of these barriers. Besides "passing the savings on to you", KS allows entrepreneurs to publish games, good and bad, which would otherwise not be available on the market.

Edited September 15, 2013 by ced1106

[JoeGKushner]

Games Plus mentioned having issues several times ordering during the 'Bones' thing. Mostly paint I believe. They also suffered a bit in terms of 'draw' since Reaper had/has essentially stopped making metal miniatures. During that time period there was NOTHING new hitting the shelves for a few months there.

 

In terms of Reapers sales being #2 or #3... maybe in terms of miniatures but Games Workshop is still the Goliath and Magic the Gathering is still the massive beast over that.

 

In terms of gamers not being in the 'know' at Gen Con, this is not the Gen Con of 20 years ago. These are not miniature painters and role players. They are cos-dressers, board gamers, and video gamers. 'Geek' Culture has exploded. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but there are probably just as many people at Gen Con who've never role played as never heard of bones.

[TheAuldGrump]

Hmmm... one of the not-very-local but very friendly game stores actually encouraged folks to go in for the Bones Kickstarter - at least one of their own Undertaker (I think that they got two) was open for people that wanted to preorder specific minis without pledging for Vampire. The dragons all sold before the boxes hit the steps.

 

Yeah... I suspect some Distributor and/or Retailer shenanigans....

 

But it will be nice when the new metal figures start showing up.

 

The Auld Grump

[SamuraiJack]

My closest FLGS doesn't seem like it will be carrying metal anymore.. they have all their reaper metals 50% off except for a very small selection of Pathfinder, Dark and very few Chronoscope..

[CaptainPete]

That's a shame. I like the metal minis because they hold more detail than some of the Bones and it's easier to put them on nice bases. I'm still buying metals, but the last time my FLGS tried to order one for me it was out of stock.

[Darsc Zacal]

That's a shame. I like the metal minis because they hold more detail than some of the Bones and it's easier to put them on nice bases. I'm still buying metals, but the last time my FLGS tried to order one for me it was out of stock.

Again, this seems like a distributor thing, as Reaper is still making metal minis. They just havent had new metal releases for a few months now.

 

Dont forget. They have a huuuge back catalogue of metal minis that are available to order. If Reaper were out of stock of a mini, provided it was not out of production for licensing or other reasons, the ReaperPeeps can pull the mold off the shelf and cast what's needed.

[Doug Sundseth]

Actually, I would like to know which distributor it is.

 

Yeah, it would be nice to know which distributor is going out of business next.

 

The most shocking thing I heard was that many distributors were insisting on 60% to carry anything from a company that used kickstater and there was some very valid scuttlebutt about how those same distributors were quite upset with Reaper over the Bones Kickstarter.

 

60% off is the standard discount that distrubutors get from nearly everyone. It used to be 50% off with a 10% discount for paying on time and 10% more for paying more on time, aka 50/10/10, which works out to a 59.5% discount, since the discounts are taken consecutively. But the distributors took all the discounts whether they paid on time or not, so most manufacturers just went to 60% off. FWIW, stores normally get 50% off, plus or minus a bit, depending on volume and occasionally manufacturer.

 

The thing is, distributors lie*. They have always lied. I firmly believe that they will always lie until they're out of business. Specifically, it is SOP for distributors to say that they can't get stock from manufacturers because the manufacturer is out of stock. They say this when they're on a credit hold, because they haven't paid the mfr for the stock already delivered. They say this when they under order and run out. They say this when they don't know who the mfr is. And they say this when they don't like the manufacturer.

 

The death of the three-tiered distribution system can't come soon enough for me.

 

And I'll not be special ordering anything from a store that says they'll be ordering from a distributor, because the odds of success are simply too low. Don't like Kickstarter projects? We'll see how you like all orders going direct.

 

Stores are for browsing and impulse buys only. If they offer gaming space, that increases the possibility of impulse buying for me, but that's it.

 

Buh-bye.

 

* I have no specific knowledge even about which distributor this was, much less the specifics of this store's orders, but I'd be willing to put money down and give odds that whichever one it is, they lie about stock availability.

[Bonwirn]

I believe it comes down to the distributor not wanting to special order ones and twos of pieces. They want to order by the case, as it makes it easier to rebox and ship. My FLGS orders from the distributors, and I give them a chance. Once I get the out of stock (or not available) notice from them, I will order online. I do participate in Kickstarters, but also try to support my local stores. I have even bought more bones from the local stores, even as I stare at a large pile of unpainted bones.