A question about DM-ing styles

[buglips*the*goblin]

My players murdered goblin women and kids. So long as they don't murder decent folk I let it slide. It's not like reconciliation between the noble races and the twisted ones is realistic in any case. Given that, if they exterminate them all as vermin I don't count it as evil. Better goblins than a gnome village. I removed ambiguity to channel their hobo-murdering down a more productive path. It's a clear "them or us" deal.

 

Neutrals are a different matter.

[Dadcubed]

I'd love to hear what adventures / worlds would support these guidelines. Particular what adventures buglips has used and perhaps were they may have deviated because the PC's wanted to do something else in the adventure rather than follow the plot line. Or any adventures that are good at being free enough for the PC's but have enough plot line for the DM.

 

All great stuff being written here by everyone. Thank you :)

 

Edit: By adventure mean modules, like pre made ones.

Edited September 22, 2013 by Dadcubed

[buglips*the*goblin]

Also, I might be guilty of Buglips' "overdeveloped world." I'm using a homebrew world of my own creation, and am actively and constantly fleshing out parts of it that may or may not ever be relevant to the players. In my defense, however, I just quietly write this stuff up and put it on the campaign wiki, where my players can look at it or not, as they see fit. I don't ever give them tons of exposition about anything, really, but least of all things that don't matter to them. In addition, I do focus on the things that are relevant to the PCs. I'm also pretty terrible at improv, though I'm getting better, so having lots of notes is very helpful to me, and I also just really enjoy worldbuilding.

 

 

 

 

It's only a problem when it eats up time better spent on more important bits. If you have enough time for both, knock yourself out. I tend to favour the lean approach so I can scare up hours for other things (like painting miniatures), so worldbuilding is a timeburgling task for me. I work better if I fill it in as I go. To solve "wandering party" syndrome, I have multiple interlinked story thread ongoing, each trading off into the next. So they don't have time to get up to any mischief or go the completely wrong direction. The next task is clear, and the clock is ticking. I also flat-out told them I left big spaces blank, and if they want to waste time exploring empty graph paper they can doodle on the notepad. I'll play Forza 4. That helps, too. The main thing is they don't feel forced to go and do something, they just know "this way is the adventure stuff". By trading out the multiple threads as they build, they feel eager to get onto the next part and find out what happens next.

 

 

Buglips makes me jealous. Only I am allowed to be insightful, incisive, and other clever pronouns beginning with "in" on this board. However, I can add a little to what he's said. However, first I will rattle on about how one does NOT gamemaster effectively.

 

1. I'm thinking of a guy I knew that I played under for a while. Eventually, no one would play in his world any more, which he found frustrating. Me? I quit because he'd beat the crap out of us mercilessly, and in a manner that felt unfair. Enemies and monsters ALWAYS made saving throws, critical hits against the PCs were many and vicious, treasure was skimpy and apt to vanish suddenly, and magic items were rarer than hen's teeth.

 

He felt we were being unfair. "What's the fun if you just get whatever you want without having to work and suffer for it a little?"

 

"Well, there is some truth to that. However, when the first party member to get a magic item is FIFTH LEVEL, and the item in question is a +1 dagger, and that's the only magic item in a hoard..."

 

 

 

 

I make all rolls except for necessary secret ones (pick pockets, finding traps) out in the open. That way when I get a string of brutal rolls they see it and despair. And I do. My red and orange gem dice are magnificently brutal. Lots of hits and high-end damage. But if I feel merciful I switch to the cursed blue dice to give them a chance. But no fudge-arinos. Sometimes they get lucky, sometimes the monsters.

 

For treasure I tossed the tables. I'm super stingy with treasure. But to compensate for this (which I explained was done to stretch out the time to power gain and prevent power creep) I added many different ways to improve. I also made it so any found items will be items of legend with stories (and possibly stacked powers) or items that either grow in power and ability when used for exceptional deeds. I also added a layer of crafting in, so that people can create their own items of legend. This helps make magic magical, means I won't have a bunch of overpowered goons at level 12, and makes accumulating items more interesting. It doesn't take much treasure to make a group of adventurers the most powerful people around.

 

Also, as noted, they gain in other ways like prestige. Also, since my map is sparse, they tend to return to the same home bases often. So the people they know there can change attitudes over time (as can other NPCs).

 

Although maybe I'm not really that stingy. I gave them an elixer of life (which they drank for no good reason). A couple of useful potions and scrolls (scrolls are plot elements, useful only in circumstances which will arise later - like protection from lycanthropes). A magic moon orb with powers over/against lycanthropes (plot element). And a legendary elven decanter that turns water into two grailfulls of healing potion per day. (Plot element, also lets priests expand their spell selection a bit)

 

There's just no such thing as randomly finding a +1 weapon. And I have a good argument against power creep, because my Doomguard benefitted the most last time. So if I'm making the case and I was the most grotesquely overpowered then people are willing to listen.

 

But honestly, when I could open a portable hole and arm a town militia without getting below my spare +3 swords (All 10 I wore were +5) the treasure tables have been way too generous. Fun drops precipitously in 2nd Edition past level 12 due to power creep, so I explained that stretching it out will, in the long run, wring more fun out of it. People seem happy enough, and enthused about the idea of weapons that grow.

[buglips*the*goblin]

I'd love to hear what adventures / worlds would support these guidelines. Particular what adventures buglips has used and perhaps were they may have deviated because the PC's wanted to do something else in the adventure rather than follow the plot line. Or any adventures that are good at being free enough for the PC's but have enough plot line for the DM.

 

All great stuff being written here by everyone. Thank you :)

 

The easiest way to keep a party on track is to give each of them a vested interest pertinant to their character on the suggested serving path. I'll never tell them they can't up and go do what they want - but if they do then the elf isn't going to find out about that weird amulet she found, the halfling will never know the answer to that riddle that's sure to lead to treasure, the swashbuckler will never find out what happened to that mysterious lady stranger he talked to, the priestly deadtender won't find out who's been raising all the undead, and the dwarf fighter/cleric won't find the man who possibly knows information about the orc who stole the dwarven secrets.

 

But if they don't want to know any of that, they can certainly go off south for some sun and fishing. "And the halfling caught a marlin twice as big as himself, and everybody ate until they were full. Then they sang songs and lived happily ever after. The End. Anybody fancy a hot rod showdown on Laguna Seca?"

 

 

Edit to add - ultimately all you have to do to get people to go the right way is make them very interested to go there. I think people only feel forced into something when they're not interested or invested in it. Having explained before the campaign that my goal is deep story, good character arcs, fair reward and advancement, and many opportunities for epicness - and then proving it out - cooperation was easily gained. That's the carrot.

 

The stick is that I couldn't give two flying figs about being a DM in the first place, so if they insist on being contrary and wasting my time I'll end the game entirely and send them home. I'll paint miniatures game or no game, I did for two years. I'm willing to expend effort for some superlative fun, but I won't tolerate people just screwing around for no reason. That doesn't amuse me, it just wastes time better spent doing other stuff. I'm bringing my A-game to the table, I expect the same level of effort in return. If I get that, everybody wins. If I don't, I'll find a more satisfying hobby.

 

 

ETA 2: Saw Dadcubed's edit about modules. I don't use them. Never have. Probably never will. It's as much work to tailor them to give the party enough interesting stuff to do as it is to make my own, so I just make my own. Trying to shoehorn somebody else's (often, in my experience, badly written) idea of funtimes into my zen rock garden of plot and intrigue strikes me as asking for migraines. No module has ever sparked my fire enough to make me say "oh, now this would be fun to do" and if I'm not interested in it, nobody else playing will be.

 

That said, the 7 Rules are just guidelines. More of a philosophy, really. So they should work with modules, I guess.

Edited September 22, 2013 by buglips*the*goblin

[TGP]

I would enjoy hearing other people's ideas on handing out experience points for activity other than hacking and slashing down monsters or accumulating treasure. Every group I have played with has at some point become dissatisfied with the old standard XP system (1 GP = 1 XP & 1 monster killed = some set amount of XP). It manifests itself in various ways:

• Fighters wanting to cut down everything possible because it is XP on the hoof.
• Negotiating or evading never considered as options because where is the XP in that?
• Thieves stealing from party members because they think more treasure = more XP just for them.
• Clerics, Thieves and Magic Users feeling like they contribute less (and believing they need to get into CCombat like a Fighter).
• Fighters feeling like they contribute more (and believing they should have a bigger XP share).
• Thieves and Clerics wanting to 'charge' for services rendered: picking locks, removing curses, heal spells...etc.

[buglips*the*goblin]

 

I would enjoy hearing other people's ideas on handing out experience points for activity other than hacking and slashing down monsters or accumulating treasure. Every group I have played with has at some point become dissatisfied with the old standard XP system (1 GP = 1 XP & 1 monster killed = some set amount of XP). It manifests itself in various ways:

• Fighters wanting to cut down everything possible because it is XP on the hoof.
• Negotiating or evading never considered as options because where is the XP in that?
• Thieves stealing from party members because they think more treasure = more XP just for them.
• Clerics, Thieves and Magic Users feeling like they contribute less (and believing they need to get into CCombat like a Fighter).
• Fighters feeling like they contribute more (and believing they should have a bigger XP share).
• Thieves and Clerics wanting to 'charge' for services rendered: picking locks, removing curses, heal spells...etc.

 

 

 

I calculate monsters XP and then add a little sugar on top to make it nice and round. That's the extra to cover the miscellaneous bits that led to overall success. Defeating a foe is all that is necessary for the full reward, and the foe is the primary obstacle to accomplishing the mission. So it's not "per monster" XP, the monster's XP is just an abstract number representing accumulated growth over the course of accomplishing the mission.

 

I give out XP rewards any time a party takes a sufficiently long rest period (full day). Of course, I don't let them sleep any time they want. Usually only when I've beaten them to smithereens and a goblin's sneeze would kill half of them. Then I'll show mercy and let them take a breather and jot down some maths. This usually also handily coincides with them using new information to refine their plan of action - so it usually works out that XP has a practical counterpoint. They've learned.

 

XP is always divided evenly, with the sole exception of an absent player or a dead one. This hasn't been questioned, but if it were - say somebody complained that the thief only stood by the door and hid and didn't do anything - I'd explain that a great many things happen in an encounter, not all of which are known or obvious. The thief may have been out of action that time, but he might stop an ambush from behind the next time. Potential action counts as much as real action, and only the unified application of abilities can accomplish the goal. So everybody gets a slice of pie.

 

Should that explanation ever be insufficient, the player is clearly not suitable for our campaign and will have their invitation revoked.

 

 

** Defeating a foe only requires that they be removed from the ability to cause harm or further their evil plan. This can be by killing, or by tickling them with fairy wings. Or any other method, so long as they are incapacitated enough to count as undone.

 

*** Evasion is not an issue if there's enough pressure on the party. If they know an encounter that might drain spells and stamina can be avoided until later, they might take it. They know I'm working to whittle away their strength and they may not have a chance to reconstitute before a big encounter. It's amazing how quickly people can come to parley instead of combat once they know it's in their interest to try.

 

**** XP is only gained from encounters either linked to the story in some way, or sufficiently challenging as to pose suitable risk. Killing bunny rabbits won't earn XP. Setting off to murder a lone orc because you need 15 xp to reach level 13 won't either. Slaying the hobbit shopkeep definitely won't earn XP (though the shopkeep might get XP if he won and defeated his potential murder-robber).

Edited September 22, 2013 by buglips*the*goblin

[Orlando_the_Technicoloured]

I tend to only award XP for stuff done for a good reason (in game or in character) plus extras for good roleplaying (or just plain being entertaining in game). Getting XP just for picking up a coin, just NOT GONNA HAPPEN

 

so if Burbar the Bold was bitten by a Hobo as a small child and feels he has to go around chopping up all that he sees that's cool and he can have XPs for it (and appear on the wanted list of the local watch if he's not careful or doesn't pay his bribes on time)

 

A cleric charging for helping out the local populace will depend on how his or her deity views this sort of behaviour, at the very least the local temple will need a tithe and many gods will flat out get annoyed (not a good thing)

 

In terms of rewards I might use the treasure a group of enemies has as a rough measure of how many XP dealing with them should give and that would be split pretty evenly amongst all those who participated, killing the major big-bad might give a bonus, but so would coming up with a good plan for taking them on, firing off a smart spell choice, or spotting the trap so you could lead the enemies back into it

 

(If all players can't get roughly equal rewards from playing well you're doing it wrong whatever the rules say)

 

As to interparty thievery and similar in general I'd prefer it doesn't happen (as it can easily lead to rows/arguments and walk outs when somebody's character gets killed) so XP awards would be limited for it, but this could change if there was a obvious sticky fingered character the rest knew about and tolerated (the ever so entertaining halfling thief has stolen the rubies again, somebody get them back from her), or if it's a one off for a major plot point for the character (the star of the east has been sought by Grimnirs clan for generations so if he gets a chance he should grab it)

 

but the bottom line is it should be fun

 

characters should grow and progress (if only so you can throw a range of different creatures at them) but you want to be able to have at least some control over how they do so

 

they should have a reasonable chance of levelling up at similar rates (really important this one)

 

actions have consequences in game (as buglips says),

 

let the peasant die because they can't pay for a healing spell, and maybe next time you need a curse removing the local prelate is away 'on retreat' and just cant do it till next month, charge for removing traps, unlocking chests or whatever and you may find you've got a reputation for it, the local thieves guild might demand you open/disarm something beyond you capabilities' or else

[Dadcubed]

This is all great stuff. I have always felt a little uncomfortable with modules as it feels like it will stifle the "me" in my GM'ing. I think I will read a few and just steal some ideas I like. Like Buglips says, keeping it thinner but having a good overall plot really sounds the way to go.

 

I am writing backgrounds for characters that I am creating for a Swords and Wizardry game. So the backgrounds and characters will be preset. This will automatically give some motivators and plot lines for each character to help with direction.

 

The first game I wish to run in a couple of decades will have me as a "new" GM really and will be an intro game for new players but perhaps some veteran players too. I'm really looking forward to getting started. However if its not smooth, as Buglips says I'm quite happy painting miniatures and modelling so it has to be fun for all! :)

[Orlando_the_Technicoloured]

modules are great sources of inspiration, and collections of bits and pieces you can use the elsewhere or a way to overcome "DM's block"

 

politics heavy ones can be great as what's going on behind the scenes, if the players what to get involved great, use the stuff within, if not let it happen anyway and colour the background

 

they're also great sources of maps, players love maps

[Slendertroll]

I read modules for inspiration, and will often steal individual encounters and so forth from them, but don't use them wholesale. It's a lot of work to make them fit the game world/plot, but they've done a good deal of the work of building and balancing encounters already, so I feel it's sort of a wash in the end.

[Doug Sundseth]

 

I would enjoy hearing other people's ideas on handing out experience points for activity other than hacking and slashing down monsters or accumulating treasure.

 

For me, it's pretty easy. We play at a level until I decide that the characters need to be a higher level to advance the story or until I think it would be more fun to advance than to stay at that level.

 

I used to track experience obsessively (and coins, and encumbrance, and the value of every suit of leather armor worn by some mook, for that matter). I no longer find it fun. See also: mapping from the GM's description. I found all of those things interesting at some point. That point is not this point.

 

I also don't worry if someone misses a session. Missing the game is punishment enough without having to also miss out on being the same approximate power level as the rest of the group. And my players are all professionals who have complex lives. It's not fun, so it's gone.

[smokingwreckage]

Sandbox modules describing a region are prolly more useful than plot-driven ones.

 

Have any of you guys tried Burning Wheel or Torchbearer? You really ought read through one of those two.

[Nocturne]

A bit late to the party but I absolutely agree %100 that roleplaying is not DM vs players. I've experienced both DM's and players that forget this. Players should not be out to break the system as that just spoils the fun for everyone else, DM's should not be out to purposefully kill the entire party as tat's no fun for everyone else and you don't get to tell your story.

 

Also, worse than the overdeveloped world is the overdeveloped encounter, especially if you don't take your players personalities into account. I knew one group playing Spycraft, the DM (or whatever that game called them) spent several days putting together an encounter where the players had to infiltrate an enemy base that was fronted by building in a busy street. Everything was meticulously mapped out, all of the surrounding alleyways, fire escapes, tunnel systems, traffic flow and pedestrians for various hours of the day, maintenance access. , local businesses they could use for cover. Everything.

 

What he failed to take into account was that two of his players had specialised in rocket launchers and grenades respectively and he'd allowed them access to that kit. I don't know exactly how it went down but I know the DM was so angry by the end he made them redo the whole thing from the start the next week. Know your players, remember what they have.

[buglips*the*goblin]

The utility of modules is different for everybody. The DM I share this world with part-time uses them more than I do (not so far in this campaign) but most times we never know. The exception was Dragon Mountain, because that's one of the few where you want people to know its name.

 

I don't like modules. To be fair, I've seen a lot of bad ones and they may not all be so terrible.

 

But I also dislike canned settings. I would not DM at all unless freed from the shackles of Forgotten Realms. I really hate that place. Well, technically I hate all of them - I just hate that one most.

 

This is less about "my world is better" and more "my world has flaws I put into it, not flaws somebody else put into it". Also, there's a lot less crap for me to read and nobody can gripe if I forget about some obscure junk Ed Greenwood and pals crammed into a town that I didn't read about.

 

It's more work for me to read and try to remember stuff, and change it to fit, than to just make it up as I go. By which I don't mean improv on the fly, I mean that in the time between games I work out what I need and make it up beforehand. If I need a town for them to use, I place one. And I figure out why that town is there. I know it's just an advanced base, but it still has to be logical. People built there for a reason. It can be as simple as good groundwater for wells. Maybe good soil for a rare vegetable that's a delicacy. Or maybe it's not a thriving place because it was founded illogically by Marcus the Mad and his devout cult followers long ago and now the only people who live there are the inbred descendents who won't leave because the land is sacred, the land is their blood and body from the human sacrifices back fifty years ago during the Great Dust. And maybe they don't cotton much to outsiders.

 

That's a million times easier for me than trying to remember who's who in Sembia in reference book X.

[Suden]

 

I would enjoy hearing other people's ideas on handing out experience points for activity other than hacking and slashing down monsters or accumulating treasure. Every group I have played with has at some point become dissatisfied with the old standard XP system (1 GP = 1 XP & 1 monster killed = some set amount of XP). It manifests itself in various ways:

• Fighters wanting to cut down everything possible because it is XP on the hoof.
• Negotiating or evading never considered as options because where is the XP in that?
• Thieves stealing from party members because they think more treasure = more XP just for them.
• Clerics, Thieves and Magic Users feeling like they contribute less (and believing they need to get into CCombat like a Fighter).
• Fighters feeling like they contribute more (and believing they should have a bigger XP share).
• Thieves and Clerics wanting to 'charge' for services rendered: picking locks, removing curses, heal spells...etc.

 

That sounds like 1st edition exp rules? They were really bad, one of the worst things about the edition. Second edition was a little better, it added optional exp rewards for classes doing their class job (clerics healing, rogues opening locks etc.) but it still wasn't well balanced. 3rd edition had a much better system, the only real flaw in it for me was that characters level way too fast compared to 1st and 2nd. Otherwise, 3rd did a great job with the challenge rating system. Maybe you can try and adapt it to your game?

 

Party encounters some bandits. They can kill them and get exp as per normal. Or, the rogue can sneak in and steal their weapons and the party can just walk past, they are unlikely to engage in battle unarmed. Or, the ranger could lead the party through the woods and bypass the encounter. Or the bard can stroll in and use diplomacy to turn them into best friends. Or the wizard casts sleep, the party robs them blind and walks away. Either way, the party will get exp based on the challenge rating faced. In some cases the challenge rating and exp will be less, especially in the sneak past type of scenarios. Traps have a challenge rating based on how difficult they are to disarmed combined with their relative lethality. Other, completely non combat encounters can have a challenge rating and exp for successful resolution. Diplomatic missions, crossing a raging river, locating some magical herbs, etc., can all lead to exp rewards.

 

The other thing third edition did with exp is make it so the whole group splits the exp, evenly if they are all the same level, divided a bit differently if the party are different levels (lower levels actually get a bit more exp, so they should catch up eventually). Exp also varies based on character level vs. challenge rating. A 5th level party defeating an owlbear (challenge rating 4) would divide 1000 exp. A 10th level party facing the same would get 375 exp to divvy up, and a 12th or higher level group would get no exp as the encounter should be trivial. This takes away a lot of the problems caused by your bullet points, as the party benefits evenly no matter who did what in combat. You can still give individual exp per player based strictly on roleplaying, but the rest is divided up evenly, and encourages everyone to work together.

 

I remember decades ago, we had a wizard in our group who would always hold back most of his magical arsenal, wanting to swoop in and strike the killing blow. He'd be happy to fireball a group of goblins, but when we'd face a dragon, my warrior would tank, do most of the damage, the cleric would heal the warrior, the rogue would get his one backstab per fight in, then when it was on the ropes the wizard would fire off a magic missile and get more exp than everyone else combined. He did it all the time, until the rogue threw his spellbook in the fire.