A question about DM-ing styles

[ShadowRaven]

it's times like that, when I am glad I am single and not faced with the moral quandary of which sexy female PC I should escape with....

 

admittedly, that's about the only times I'm glad I'm single.

[TGP]

I miss THAC0, but my aim is improving

 

 

Hah, good luck with finding an RPG that "everybody" wants. Someone will always complain they miss THAC0 or something.

I do miss Thaco. But I am getting used to BAB. slowly.

 

If DDN has Thaco then I'm in.

 

I looked in the DnD Next materials I downloaded for "Thac0" and I think it is gone.

 

Lowly creatures had single digit Armor Class numbers, tougher things like Demons had two digit Armor Class numbers. Attacking something works like this: D20 + Applicable Bonuses - Target's AC = N. If N = zero or higher the attack succeeded.

Edited September 26, 2013 by TGP

[buglips*the*goblin]

It's all still essentially Thac0, it's just mathed differently for people confused by integers. Thac0 was never complicated.

 

Thac0 14 = target number 14 for 0.

 

Roll, add bonus, get number.

 

Roll 12 with + 2 sword = 14, AC 0.

 

Roll 14 with +2 sword = 16, AC -2.

 

It's just as easy, the only part that confused people is how a plus becomes a minus and a minus becomes a plus. But in all honesty, anybody that managed to get to the eighth grade should have picked it up quickly. It's still "high roll wins" no matter which way you math it, so the result derived from the equation is the same even if the equation is different. Assuming equivalent armor class values and assorted bonuses, if you need an 18 to hit a Balor with Thac0, you'll still need an 18 to hit him the other way.

 

It's like this:

 

4+8-4 = 4

 

8 - 4 = 4

 

2(4-2) = 4

 

It's all 4, it's just how you get there that's different. I'm okay with simplifying the math, but I still don't think anybody should have been seriously confused by the old method. Thac0 wasn't broken, it just worked differently to get the same result.

[TGP]

I have not played DnD since 2e was out; I have some of the 3.x books (...a mixed bag of 3.0 and 3.5)

 

Did TSR or WotC or Hasbro flip the numbers around somewhere? When was that?

 

The only advantage I see with AC ranging from 1 (as worst) to 19 (vastly better) is that maybe that would allow a slightly broader range of numbers that could represent the mundane/un-magicked armour options?

 

Also, I suppose something ridiculously powerful (...godzilla..?) could be AC 38.

[Loim]

I liked Thaco.

[(SMD)MadCow]

I started playing RPGs with AD&D, and Im glad thaco isnt used in 3rd or 4th editions.

[ShadowRaven]

my only issue with Thac0 was the way armour was scaled with a lower number being better. It wasn't hard to figure, I learned to play using it, it just seemed backwards having zero being good and ten being bad. Once you got beyond that it was fine

[Doug Sundseth]

Thac0 (originally a Judges Guild concept that was later added to the core line of TSR rules), was significantly better than the original to hit tables per character class.

 

But it's still a poor user interface to a simple concept. The unified DC concept used in D&D 3rd and later is much cleaner.

[Suden]

Thac0 (originally a Judges Guild concept that was later added to the core line of TSR rules), was significantly better than the original to hit tables per character class.

 

But it's still a poor user interface to a simple concept. The unified DC concept used in D&D 3rd and later is much cleaner.

Absolutely. As others pointed out, Thac0 worked well and wasn't hard to use in game, but the unified concept is much better. Having the same mechanic for skills, saves and attacks is much simpler for new players to use and understand.

[dsmiles]

Late to the party, as usual.

 

As a player I enjoy challenges that are ACTUALLY challenging. I don't ever expect one of my PCs to last an entire campaign, because sometimes, stuff happens. The challenge model that WotC seems to employ is that the PCs are always supposed to win. I don't like it. PCs should periodically fail, it makes their successes that much sweeter. (See "The Empty Child" Doctor Who episode.)

 

As a DM, I employ the same mentality. Of course, my players are always aware (in advance) that this is the case. (They are also aware in advance, of my character creation limitations, and the fact that they'll likely never buy magic items [i find the practice deplorable, magic, IMO, should be rare and powerful].)

 

Don't get me started on THAC0. I loved it, and was confused for at least a year by 3.x and BAB.

[CrimsonStar]

I was just discussing the merits of THAC0 with a friend the other day. I grew up with it and loved it. Newer versions basically reversed it. On the subject of NEXT, does it not have skill ranking like in 3/4e? It mentions skills, but gives me the impression if you're trained in a skill you're proficient with it and get advantage when rolling for it. If so, I like the less complicated system. Am I completely off on that?

[Doug Sundseth]

I've never really understood the opposition to magic item sales. As a PC, there is always some price I would be willing to accept for any item. If I can hire an army or the best wizard in the world, perhaps I don't need that +1 intelligent sword with a cool history as much as I thought I did. And if I'm willing to sell it, it's pretty likely that others would be willing to sell for the right price, too.

 

What might make sense would be no shops for magic items, just because they're specialty items out of the reach of the vast majority of the population, so the sales volume wouldn't support a shop. In that case, though, I would expect there to be factors or brokers who would facilitate the transfer of items to other wealthy buyers (for a commission, of course).

 

And all that assumes the kind of magic item shortage where a PC might perhaps see half a dozen magic items in his whole career and hope to own one. For worlds where items show up, say, once per level (or equivalent for non-level systems), magic item transfers for value would be significantly easier. And if the PCs run across several opponents per level that have one or more items (default D&D, even for games using OD&D), it's not even really a scarcity economy.

 

The fact that islands, or jumbo jets, or 100m yachts, or whatever are out of the reach of the vast majority of the population doesn't mean they can't be bought, just that they can't be bought by me.

 

[dsmiles]

I've never really understood the opposition to magic item sales. As a PC, there is always some price I would be willing to accept for any item. If I can hire an army or the best wizard in the world, perhaps I don't need that +1 intelligent sword with a cool history as much as I thought I did. And if I'm willing to sell it, it's pretty likely that others would be willing to sell for the right price, too.

 

What might make sense would be no shops for magic items, just because they're specialty items out of the reach of the vast majority of the population, so the sales volume wouldn't support a shop. In that case, though, I would expect there to be factors or brokers who would facilitate the transfer of items to other wealthy buyers (for a commission, of course).

 

And all that assumes the kind of magic item shortage where a PC might perhaps see half a dozen magic items in his whole career and hope to own one. For worlds where items show up, say, once per level (or equivalent for non-level systems), magic item transfers for value would be significantly easier. And if the PCs run across several opponents per level that have one or more items (default D&D, even for games using OD&D), it's not even really a scarcity economy.

 

The fact that islands, or jumbo jets, or 100m yachts, or whatever are out of the reach of the vast majority of the population doesn't mean they can't be bought, just that they can't be bought by me.

 

That's pretty much what I meant. I may have over-generalized a bit. Individuals may sell magic items or "antiques," but there is no such thing as a Magic-Mart^TM.

[Doug Sundseth]

That's pretty much what I meant. I may have over-generalized a bit. Individuals may sell magic items or "antiques," but there is no such thing as a Magic-Mart^TM.

 

 

You might want to skip incendiary phrasing like, "I find the practice deplorable...", then.

 

I don't find your practice deplorable, though the game would have to be quite a lot different from any D&D game I've played in to make it interesting to me. I've played in and run both Fantasy Hero and Runequest games where significant magic items are quite scarce, so I understand that it both can and does work when done right. But if the PCs have half a dozen or more items apiece, it only makes sense for there to be a way for them to both buy and sell items.

 

Example: My dad comes from a small rural town (pop. 611 last I looked). In that town, there is a farm implements dealer who sells combine harvesters ("combines") that start at around $300,000 US. Now you probably can't walk in and expect to drive off with three that day, but you can certainly place an order and expect to get them in weeks. Small town but there's a shop for a very expensive and rare item. (Try to get a combine in New York City. ) If you want a new Porsche in the same price range, of course, you're probably going to have to take a trip. Similarly, if you want a $3,000,000 yacht and live in Santa Monica, you can probably talk to several yacht dealers, though finding that yacht in Kansas City is going to be a bit harder.

 

It's at least reasonable that the same sort of thing could apply in a fantasy game (though quite possibly not the sort of game you want to run). Having a dealer in exotic adventuring tools in the town that adventurers use to start their trips into the Worldwound (to use a Pathfinder example) or the Giant Dungeon of Adventure and Horrible Death or whatever seems entirely reasonable, even if those tools are tremendously expensive relative to the sort of thing a pig farmer might be able to buy. Sure, it's specialized, but there's high demand and transportation/distribution ... well, magic can affect that, too.

 

Here's a hint: If you have to make rules artificially setting different sales and purchase prices for PCs to prevent or discourage them from becoming magic dealers, there's probably enough reason and incentive for NPCs to become magic dealers.

[dsmiles]

 

That's pretty much what I meant. I may have over-generalized a bit. Individuals may sell magic items or "antiques," but there is no such thing as a Magic-Mart^TM.

 

 

You might want to skip incendiary phrasing like, "I find the practice deplorable...", then.

 

The problem is, I do find magic-marts deplorable. People who sell magic items in my settings are more akin to "a noble who has fallen on hard times and must sell his heirloom sword to feed his family."

 

If a magic item isn't a piece of loot, PCs are only going to get them in ones and twos (minus easily creatable items such as potions and scrolls).