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Torn Armor announces their Kickstarter minis are a maybe.


Darsc Zacal
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Since I only backed this because Reaper had enough faith to put it on their front page, I'm now asking that they not post Kickstarters run by incompetent people on their front page anymore. Especially since Torn has been conspicuously silent about the free Clockwork Dragons that they supposedly already had on-hand, and which would go a long way to lowering my lost money. I guess they shipped those off too.

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I have to ask a question here - what would it take for people to trust Defiance again?

 

There is a lot of bashing of Defiance and Tony Reidy (much of it deserved), however, I also get the impression that for many people there is absolutely no way that Defiance Games will ever be able to redeem themselves, no matter what happens.  Seriously - with the attitude a bunch of people have about Defiance, I doubt that even finding out Reaper bought the company, filled all their back orders, gave away free product and Tony died in a car accident would change peoples minds about Defiance. 

 

The reason I bring this up is that from the outside, over the last few months of 2013, it could really look like Tony had been removed from control at Defiance, and that others were taking over and trying to turn the company around.  It's entirely possible that Torn Armor's contact at Defiance was not Tony, that she had done some research, asked some questions and was assured he was not involved any more. Doesn't that kind of throw the benefit of the doubt her way?

 

But another factor to consider here - she had to look around for another manufacturer because her original choice came back with a higher price, right?.  Is it not possible that the higher price from her first choice had to do with fixing the digital files in the first place? At which point she looked around for someone who could get her out of her bind, and the only ones who could step up within her budget was Defiance?  That scenario lends some legitimacy to Defiance's response about the files being bad, does it not?

 

Yet another possibility to consider - perhaps she chose Defiance precisely because she knew she was screwed, and figured with their reputation, she could absolve herself of blame? 

 

Anyway, I'm not saying any of this is true, nor am I saying that Defiance isn't deserving of their reputation, but I am bringing this up because I think people are ascribing motivations and ill intent where none may actually exist.  The reason I think this is because in the early days of Defiance's history, I was working with them on the background for their Alien War game setting. (The map and globe of their first campaign world, Aleutia, was done by me - http://defiancegames.com/news/tag/news/Aleutia).

And what I found working with Tony is that he's almost exactly like one of the co-owners of the company I contract to, someone I've had experience dealing with for the last 11 years.  That similarity leads me to believe Tony is more of an arrogant, incompetent dreamer who's visions are bigger than his ability to fulfill them, and someone doesn't know how to pull himself out of the messes he makes nor even admit they're his fault, rather than an outright scam artist or thief. I've had dealings with a true scam artist before, and the guy's at Defiance don't come close. 

 

Again,not defending Defiance or Torn Armor at all, just wanting people to consider the entire situation is probably ascribable more to incompetence and poor decision making, rather than ill-intent on anyone's part. 

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Complete speculation on my part, but I would guess things like the dragons and terrain that they've already bought and have on hand will eventually get shipped out to people. I wouldn't expect to hear anything solid on it though until they get further into the "what next?" decision making. 

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Since I only backed this because Reaper had enough faith to put it on their front page, I'm now asking that they not post Kickstarters run by incompetent people on their front page anymore. Especially since Torn has been conspicuously silent about the free Clockwork Dragons that they supposedly already had on-hand, and which would go a long way to lowering my lost money. I guess they shipped those off too.

I understand your frustration and it is unfortunate, Kits post and recommendation on behalf of Reaper was also one of the deciding factors in my choice to back Torn Armor's project, but I don't believe Reaper did anything wrong and don't think Reaper should stop bringing kickstarters or companies that they feel strongly about to our attention.

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If I remember correctly (not always a good money bet), the Torn Armor peeps were known to Reaper from before the KS anyway.  I think that was mentioned on the KS thread, and is sort of how old Wyrmy got in on the plan.  I'm prepared to be corrected on that, though, because I'm far too lazy to go look it up. 

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I have to ask a question here - what would it take for people to trust Defiance again?

 

There is a lot of bashing of Defiance and Tony Reidy (much of it deserved), however, I also get the impression that for many people there is absolutely no way that Defiance Games will ever be able to redeem themselves, no matter what happens. Seriously - with the attitude a bunch of people have about Defiance, I doubt that even finding out Reaper bought the company, filled all their back orders, gave away free product and Tony died in a car accident would change peoples minds about Defiance.

 

Let's make one thing clear. Tony owns and runs Defiance Games. No one else ever has had the power to make the final decisions except for Tony. The folks that were with him at the companies start up have all long since left him to his own devices.

 

Even when the new CEO and management team were "put into place" and Tony promised them autonomy, that never happened. He lied about Defiances financial situation to those people, kept involving himself in the decision making, and used that team as sock puppets to try and create a new image of the company, which failed. Those folks could not distance themselves from Tony and Defiances situation fast enough.

 

EDIT: accidentally hit the post icon, again.

 

Anyway, to continue.

 

At this point Defiance and Tony are too interconnected. Tony is Defiance Games and he is untrustworthy and worse.

 

Unlike Wargames Factory which has flourished since Tony was kicked out, there's no incentive for anyone to buy out Tony and take control of Defiance games because there are no assets.

Edited by Darsc Zacal
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Another $135 down the drain....

 

I just hope going to Defiance is a really stupid decision and not intentionally sink the ship so she can salvage the wreckage as her own.

 

I don't think they ever mention they are going to work with Defiance, and if they did I would avoid them like plague.... 

 

Lastly, I am sure she reserve some funds for the clockwork dragons! She should at least fulfill that part of the bargain!

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An earlier update literally said that they already had the clockwork dragons. How hard would it be to just be around and assure people that they aren't taking the rest of the money and buying a yacht?

 

Honestly, DG has a bad reputation, but it's Torn Armor that's seeming shady here by posting the failure and then completely disappearing for over a day.

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It's no doubt an emotional time for the folks behind Torn Armor.

While I fault them for many things, staying offline after an announcement like this for a day or so isn't one of them.

 

But they shouldn't delay in addressing their backers for too long.

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I have to ask a question here - what would it take for people to trust Defiance again?

 

There is a lot of bashing of Defiance and Tony Reidy (much of it deserved), however, I also get the impression that for many people there is absolutely no way that Defiance Games will ever be able to redeem themselves, no matter what happens.  Seriously - with the attitude a bunch of people have about Defiance, I doubt that even finding out Reaper bought the company, filled all their back orders, gave away free product and Tony died in a car accident would change peoples minds about Defiance. 

I suspect it would be the same thing that redeemed the Wargames Factory. If the company retrenched, started to pay off its debts, paid new debts on time, started to produce quality figures on a reasonable timetable, and dealt honorably with its artists, casters, and customers, then perhaps in one or two years people might start to say it had turned around.

 

I do not require the complete and total removal of Tony Reidy from the company first, although given how many people he has burned, I can see how that would be a nonnegotiable precondition for many people.

 

The terrible reputation of Defiance would be no more a liability for this than the terrible reputation of the Wargames Factory was for its own redemption. The WGF had an even less auspicious start, since Tom Reidy spent ages spreading a disinformation campaign about it and its circumstances all over the net.

 

That similarity leads me to believe Tony is more of an arrogant, incompetent dreamer who's visions are bigger than his ability to fulfill them, and someone doesn't know how to pull himself out of the messes he makes nor even admit they're his fault, rather than an outright scam artist or thief. I've had dealings with a true scam artist before, and the guy's at Defiance don't come close. 

I have heard report that Tony Reidy is a pleasant person to know. I am willing to believe that he does not come across as a con man.

 

However, since his business results are in every way indistinguishable from those of con men, since his actions do the exact same things that con men's actions do, I think it is reasonable to refer to the situation in that light, however jolly good a fellow he may be.

 

A small business that is not paid is not in my experience consoled by the thought that at least the person who did it to them was an arrogant dreamer rather than a deliberate scammer.

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I work in insurance and we deal with con men and women. I can assure all of you that they are nearly always pleasant people to know. That is how a con works.

 

Natalya Alyssa Faden is such a pleasant lady...

 

 

 

 

 

I have to ask a question here - what would it take for people to trust Defiance again?

 

There is a lot of bashing of Defiance and Tony Reidy (much of it deserved), however, I also get the impression that for many people there is absolutely no way that Defiance Games will ever be able to redeem themselves, no matter what happens.  Seriously - with the attitude a bunch of people have about Defiance, I doubt that even finding out Reaper bought the company, filled all their back orders, gave away free product and Tony died in a car accident would change peoples minds about Defiance. 

I suspect it would be the same thing that redeemed the Wargames Factory. If the company retrenched, started to pay off its debts, paid new debts on time, started to produce quality figures on a reasonable timetable, and dealt honorably with its artists, casters, and customers, then perhaps in one or two years people might start to say it had turned around.

 

I do not require the complete and total removal of Tony Reidy from the company first, although given how many people he has burned, I can see how that would be a nonnegotiable precondition for many people.

 

Wargames Factory turns around when the Chinaman kick Reidy out! Now they are working wonders producing for Dreamforge & Kingdom Death! There wouldn't be a wargames factory if Reidy was allowed to stay.

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One of the things Terry Pratchett made clear in "Going Postal" was how likeable successful con-men are.

 

An unlikeable con-man has a harder time getting away with things. Fewer people trust someone who looks like a villain. People are less likely to make excuses when anomalies show up.

 

But lots of people will trust someone who looks like a nice guy, like someone with their interests at heart, like one of us. People are more likely to trust someone who shares their sense of humor, who enjoys their hobbies, who has an idea for a business they might have had or could get excited about.

 

And then when troubling things show up people are more likely to excuse each incident in turn, to claim jealousy or spite on the part of complainants, to wave aside evidence and not to notice when the evidence has become overwhelming. Because he's a nice guy.

 

It is not yet clear whether the Torn Armor people did anything deliberately wrong.

 

It is overwhelmingly clear that Defiance Games has.

Edited by Pingo
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