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CSM's Tome of Horrors Complete II


Serpine
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I think I feel the same as Mattnuke and Serpine here: not pressuring too much might be our best chance of receiving minis. But I can certainly understand where the frustration is coming from for the more vocally critical backers too. Damn, it feels really hard to know how to handle this best.

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I guess my feeling is I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells to get something that was promised to me. This is the real world and if you take on a project, get money for it and then fail to deliver you hear about it. It's as simple as that. Matt made promises based on money sent to him for funding, he has failed to deliver on those promises and it does no one any real good to continue to stroke his ego and say "Good boy Matt, I support you, I am so happy you grace us with your presence once every 4 months to tell us absolutely nothing." I'd rather he heard and understood exaclty how poor of a job he is doing so at the very least he realizes he can't do what he believed he could and never runs another Kickstarter again. I have kind of decided my money is already gone but I'll be darned if I am at this point going to make the guy feel like he accomplished something here and give him the confidence to run anymore Kickstarters ever. This guy needs to stay far, far away from crowdfunding. Crap in my eyes he needs to stay far, far away from miniature creating.

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The progress (or lack therefof) in D&D is what kept me cautiously out of TOH1, and by the time TOH2 rolled around, I was simply shocked by how many people were still willing to throw money at it. I'd already decided by then (from everything from the other two KSs) that CSM would not see another dollar from me in any form, regardless of how much I might like their products. Perhaps that's the wrong attitude to have, but at this point, it seems to be the little recourse that I have in expressing any displeasure over how the projects have been handled - "voting" with my future dollars, as it were.

 

~v

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I guess my feeling is I shouldn't have to walk on eggshells to get something that was promised to me. This is the real world and if you take on a project, get money for it and then fail to deliver you hear about it. It's as simple as that. Matt made promises based on money sent to him for funding, he has failed to deliver on those promises and it does no one any real good to continue to stroke his ego and say "Good boy Matt, I support you, I am so happy you grace us with your presence once every 4 months to tell us absolutely nothing." I'd rather he heard and understood exaclty how poor of a job he is doing so at the very least he realizes he can't do what he believed he could and never runs another Kickstarter again. I have kind of decided my money is already gone but I'll be darned if I am at this point going to make the guy feel like he accomplished something here and give him the confidence to run anymore Kickstarters ever. This guy needs to stay far, far away from crowdfunding. Crap in my eyes he needs to stay far, far away from miniature creating.

I 100% endorse this statement.

 

I completely understand the kid gloves approach but I've never been very good with wallflowers

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I think reading between the lines it does look like things are close to collapse, if it didn't then you wouldn't be suggesting that we tread so carefully.

But if you read the lines that are actually in the lines of the comment you are apparently referring to, Skeeter Green says "This is a matter for CSM to make good one, and I for one believe they will." So collapse is so near and certain that the rep of Frog God Games says things will probably work out. :)

 

Personally I don't know if things will of course. I certainly hope they do as I'm in for the ToH/ToH2 projects for crazy amounts of cash, but I occasionally do have my doubts. But even when I do I don't see trying to read extra doom into the situation as a helpful strategy. Staying vaguely positive and trying to ring more details out of Matt seems a more constructive approach for now.

 

It's not a strategy, I'm telling you how I see it. I think Demons and Devils has the minutest chance of being completed, ToH 1&2....a snowball's chance in Hell and all the wishful thinking in the World won't change that.

Matt has been unable to deliver against D&D in two years, what hope do you think he has of completing the much larger ToH1? As for ToH2, if a bunch of Swedish cavegirls turned up at my house offering a live-in service of free oil massages for a year, I'd be less surprised than I would of seeing any minis from ToH2

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You should not need to "walk on eggshells" or "stroke his ego": Nobody is advocating surrender, just a moderation of tone. Acting like the level of communication from CSM has been acceptable would indeed be counterproductive, but likewise declaring the project already dead or essentially insulting Matt has no logical benefit either. In spite of what internet culture might lead one to believe, surrender / attack are not the only two options in communication. So if we want to improve Beagle's chances of getting his Swedish cavegirls, I would say adopting a middle path that is stern but not defeatist / overtly hostile would be the correct approach. Or at the least it won't make the situation any worse.

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I don't think anyone was suggesting pandering to him, but saying "you suck and we've given up on you" also doesn't seem productive.  Nor does saying that even if he somehow comes through, no one will ever buy from him.  There has to be some incentive for him to actually come through.

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I agree but it's the truth. If you hired someone to repair your car and they suffered these setbacks and showed this lack of communication you would not hire that person again. Matt has screwed up and screwed up big and I'm sorry but having worked in customer relations he needs to do some serious buttkissing. It's just the way it is. Backers feel disrespected and have been treated poorly by him. If he is to gain them as customers in the future he has to put in the work to make the things he's done wrong right. Apologizing profusely would be a decent start perhaps but his mostly worthless last update certainly was not. He didn't even acknowledge that he has messed up at all.

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Nope but the backers were assured by a man that he was capable of completing a job. He failed to do so and has failed to take ownership of his failure and make a heartfelt apology to backers, backers who would be his future customer base. His Kickatarter campaign wasn't from a guy who had never had anything to do with miniatures. He'd produced before just not at that scale. So as far as the car is concerned he'd looked under the hood.

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http://time.com/money/3419108/kickstarter-backers-are-investors-and-its-time-they-got-used-to-it/

 

That's a good article, which all of us should read before pledging for anything. The point is, you probably shouldn't compare a Kickstarter to a store. It's not a store, it's an investment and much like any other investment or perceived investment (stocks, bonds, property, beanie babies....😜) you might walk away better off or you might loose it all.

 

I agree that we shouldn't cut CSM any slack IF poor decisions were the cause of delays. That's just being a smart investor. We should also give him common courtesy (I'm not saying we Reaper forumites haven't BTW). It gets my hackles up when I hear that people are trying to strong arm Skeeter Green (of Frog God games), much the same as when our own Reaper Bryan got threats for Bones I being late.

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I dealt with CSM once as a painter (around the time of their first miniature release) and my experience ensured that I'd never do any form of business with them again.  Suffice to say, I found Matt . . . unpleasant . . . to deal with.  Anyway, I'm sorry to hear about y'all getting burned - I myself was really interested in the D&D and ToH Kickstarters until saw who was running them.

 

The Egg

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