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Color Usage Discussion - MSP and others


Vaitalla
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Close to 95% of the paint I own is RMS. I love the dropper bottles and agitators. I love that it only takes a few shakes before I start hearing the agitator rattling around.


 


I like how the paint flows. However, I find I'm still very dependent on additives, specially retarders. Helps make the paint behave how I want them to.


 


My favorite ones are probably brown liner, blue liner (these two are the only ones I have spares of since I have to order my paints online) and linen white. The brown and blue liners are my usual final highlights, separately, mixed or used individually. I add Linen White to my mix as a highlight but since I keep getting feedback that I should still push my contrast I'd like to try and use it on it's own as a final highlight.


 


I sort of understand color theory. I've read Gurney's Color and Light but I guess I have to read it a few more times. 


 


Lately I've been adding whatever colors I used on another part of the figure to both my shade and highlight in an attempt to hide my inadequate grasp of color theory and, hopefully, to make the overall color choices more cohesive. Seems to be working so far but I may not know any better.


 


I also like adding glazes of the clears in the shadows to make them more interesting.


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I use Walnut Brown and Brown Liner on almost every miniature I paint. Mostly for lining, but also for eye sockets, and sometimes as a base coat for metallics. More and more I've started using Soft Blue and Peacock Green as bases for metallics. I use Clear Blue and Burgundy Wine as well as Brown Liner for shading, metallics especially. I use Fair Skin Highlight for whites of eyes. I use Tarnished Steel for most of my metallics. I'm also a big fan of Sapphire Blue. Deadrose Red is also on my list of most used. 

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My use of paints may be a bit Frankensteinian, because I probably employ more legacy paints more frequently than most people here.  In order of sheer numbers, my paint supply goes, greatest to least, like this:

 

1.  Old Reaper Pro Paint

2.  Old Ral Partha

3.  Coat D'Arms

4.  Reaper Master Series

 

This does not, of course, imply any inferiority with MSP it's just how my acquisition developed.  I bought into Old Pro Paint when the MSP line was still quite small, and because it was what I was used to I bought more of it.  Much of my collection of that, and the Ral Parthas, came as a result of rescuing old paint on its way to the trash.  My collection of MSP is growing steadily, and gets a fair bit of use.

 

If I were to arrange these by saturation, I'd go from least to greatest thusly:

 

1.  Ral Partha

2.  Master Series Paint

3.  Old Pro Paint (MSP HD also here)

4.  Coat D'Arms

 

Ral Partha are, far and away, the most dull and desaturated colours I use.  Master Series is second, but the difference between that and the third tier is not all that great.  It's more a value of subtlety, I guess.  Old Pro Paint and HD, which is fairly similar, are robust and unsubtle.  What you see if what you get.  They're denser, more robust, and fairly old school.  MSP are gentler and more refined.  As I'm not especially well-refined, I tend to go more towards 3 & 4 than 1 & 2.

 

Coat D'Arms is astonishingly vibrant - which is a plus and a minus.  I do not consider it especially useful as its own brand, if somebody were to only have one line of paint.  But I do consider it an essential tool in combination with other brands. 

 

My theory on this is that saturation is its own peculiar value, and that having a range of paints within this value increases options.  You wouldn't necessarily want all your stuff to be too saturated or too unsaturated - and this applies sometimes even on the same miniature.  I might choose to paint a person desaturated, but paint their magic items highly saturated - and in combination find that works pretty neatly.

 

I generally tend to follow a self-rule of "complexity from simplicity".  I don't want to add too many steps of mixing and fiddling around, so having all these different brands doing different things works well for me.  I would not necessarily want MSP to be as saturated as Coat D'Arms.  Better for me if they're different - because if I get 3 shades of purple in each line, and if each line has a different saturation value, then now I have a base range of 12 purples - which can then be combined with each other to produce more.  I have a swath of purples at my disposal now, and so I can make every purple I use different if I so choose.  It's all still essentially purple, but I have many optional manifestations of purple.  A purple cloak, a purple staff, purple boots can all individually be distinct. 

 

My only real complaint with MSP has been with the early metallics.  They seem overly dull, and easily separate, and just overall they're not as good as substitutes I find from other lines.  But there are exceptions to this, not least of which is the amazing Clockwork Brass.  It looks like Pirate Gold might be along the same lines, though I haven't had opportunity to try it out yet.  These are, unfortunately, limited edition colours - but whatever is different with those is exactly what I think should be applied to all the MSP metallics.  It's a good recipe.  Also, Clockwork Brass (if feasible) should totally be made into a standard colour.

 

This brings me also to another point:  so many great colours are limited edition!  Clouded Sea is my new all-time favourite colour.  It's everything I want in a paint - covers good, unusual shade, plays well with other paints, creates all kinds of options.  I literally just want to mix it with everything to see what results.  And I never know what the paint will be like until I play with it, by which time if I discover it's awesome it's hard to get more of it.  I can only hope that excellent user feedback is taken into account if these paints have the option of eventually being regular releases (i.e. - the limited run is to test them out). 

 

 

 

So, in sum:  I use many different paints for many different things.  Some are better at certain tasks than others, no line is perfect by itself.  Based on my experience with the range, and in complete disregard for its presently slender representation in my collection, I think the MSP line is the most versatile on its own - if HD and limited edition paints are included.  If I didn't have a hoard of legacy paint, I would probably only use MSP and Coat D'Arms.  CDA as an adjunct is ridiculously useful, and by their powers combined it's a handy range of options because each fills in the bits the other is missing.  Master Series paints are not necessarily saturation deficient, in fact I like them very much as they are, but the extraordinary vibrancy of Coat D'Arms combined with MSP gives an option of saturation enhancement up to the desired level of user taste.  For my purposes, that's better than adjusting MSP to be more saturated or CDA to be less - because as it stands the present circumstance provides the most options, most consistently, with least effort. 

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Mm... I will try to sort out some of my thoughts for general consumption  :;):

 

Since I dropped mini painting 10 years ago, and because the only mini paint I'd seen at that time was GW (and it was very very expensive here in Argentina), I think at that time I owned 5 Citadel paints, and all the rest were cheap craft paints. The ones that were the best for me were Delta Ceramacoat (or something like that) until they stopped being imported into Argentina. Then I was left with poorly pigmented craft acrylics.

 

When I got back into the hobby, and not a broke kid anymore with the chance of travelling abroad, I started looking into my favourite painters. Being reluctant of GW, and since most of my most liked painters being European, I built my initial list of about 30 colors out of VMC.

 

Now I own a decent mix of VMC and Scale75 paints, with 2 LTPKs worth of Reaper paints, plus an assorted 15 or so more MSP. I also have some Vallejo Model Air paints, and other "high quality" paints like Golden.

 

I am trying to learn about Color Theory and the like. Source of information, other than the internet, has been the book "Color" by Betty Edwards. It was the first text that made color (and the concepts of Hue, Value, Saturation) "click" for me. Right now I am halfway through "Color and Light" by Gurney, that is proving to be an interesting read, more on the "art" side but cool enough, and also found some references to "The Art of Color" by Johannes Itten, of which I actually snagged a very old copy in Spanish and am looking forward to read.

 

They might not be the end-all be-all and I actually think critically of several affirmations on them, but there are little pieces of information that sometimes just POP and makes stuff click for me!

 

In terms of paints, I like desaturated schemes in general. I like gritty, dark, atmospheric... but this just means I try to place the vibrant colors in chosen positions. I shade with a dark, lower chroma version of the mid-layer, and highlight to the light color (usually towards yellow, which means using a warm off white like Linen White or VMC Ivory).

 

My favourite colors are usually pastel colors... I could make a list but I need my paints in from of me because I usually go by shade of bottle and don't remember the names. One of my latest adquisitions, VMC Deck Tan, has captured my heart at the moment.

 

RMS are... too thin for me. TBH, perhaps of how I learnt to paint, I actually appreciate thicker paint that I can thin. RMS is like too thin out of the bottle. Sometimes that is a bonus, but sometimes I just want a little smudge of color to mix in and a drop of RMS contains like less pigment than a drop of VMC or SC75, for example. This is not an affirmation or scientific fact, it is just my impression and I am very ready to admit it wrong but... it just feels that way.

 

On my samples, I think my brightest and highest chroma colors are in the SC75 (the reds and blues and greens, all awesome shades). I use them sparingly, however, because of the above.

 

I have a question, you mention Brush-On Sealer as kind of a Matte Medium. How comparable are them? I could get a sizable jar of fluid matte medium (in the USA, can you believe I can't find that stuff locally??) but love Brush-On Sealer, and am bound to finish off my one bottle really soon. Do you have any advice on how to replace its propierties with Medium? Can you tell us how its properties to avoid pigment separation and chalkiness are achieved? That is the area I feel it does so much better than just Matte Medium... VMC Thinner is very similar in those characteristics, but lacking the "body" of the BOS.

 

BTW, thanks for starting this thread!!

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RMS are... too thin for me. TBH, perhaps of how I learnt to paint, I actually appreciate thicker paint that I can thin. RMS is like too thin out of the bottle.

May I ask a question?

 

If you intend to thin it anyway, then why is it "bad" that the paint is already partially thinned?  We knew going into this that many painters thinned their paints, so we designed our paint to already exhibit the quality that many were already in search of - coverage *and* thin, with the ability to be more thinned.

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Corporea, here are two threads to bookmark (other than the current one!):

 

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/50233-questions-for-anne/

http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/55113-msp-equivalencies-for-artist-colors/

 

Favorite colors!

 

Pure Black/White: obvious reasons, to give stark effect on highs or shadows; still need to learn desaturation!

Linen White/Walnut Brown: my 'warm' white and 'black', I use these more than the Pures when mixing up or down

Oiled Leather/Palomino Gold: from LTPK3's nmm gold recipe, still me favorites. Oiled Leather is a heavily used color, I use it for blond hair, leather, lots of things.

Stone greys triad: Warm steel nmm base.

Grey blues triad: One of my favorites, lots of uses. My current cold steel nmm base.

Golden Highlight: I've been trying to use this as a unifying highlight per DKS

Nightshade Purple: Another of my favorites. I use it in shadows a lot.

Muddy Soil: My brown liner is a bit too satiny for my taste, so I use Muddy Soil. Great color.

Field/Ash Grey: A couple HD paints I really dig.

 

Books!

 

Color and Light by James Gurney. I think we all know this one by now, heh.

Imaginative Realism by James Gurney. I'm a fan.

Artistic Secrets to Painting Tonal Values by Alex Kedzierski. This is where I learned how to interleave tones for the contrast critical to our medium.

Blue and Yellow Don't Make Green by Michael Wilcox. Some interesting theories on subtractive color. This unlocked "secondary" colors for me, even if there is some pretty weird stuff in it. Alternatively, you could learn Munsell style, but I think Wilcox helped me understand it well enough.

Visit the library, there are tons of great painting books and you can usually mine some nuggets out of anything. Trying to translate that to mini painting is tough, though!

 

Vidyas!

 

Dark Sword 1 w/ Anne Foerster and Jen Haley: I'm such a sycophant! But no, this one is my favorite. Not only is the instruction top-notch, AND you get two different perspectives; the conversation and incidental information is almost unprecedented in the video instruction offerings on the market. If I had one video, this would be it.

Complete Guide to Miniature Painting w/ Laurent Esposito Mas: Something of a misnomer, but it's a pretty decent video. I favor thin layers and glazes, so it works for me. There's something to be aware of when considering videos, if you've found a style you're comfortable with, instructional videos by painters with opposing styles might be less useful (I avoid instructors who use wet-on-wet voodoo!).

 

As far as application, I'm still so new at this, even after almost two years. Ali McVey opened my eyes to colored shadows on my second mini, so I've been somewhat open minded to the concept, but only really pushed hard to integrate it into practice pretty recently. With my current project I've used Carnival Purple to shade Ginger Cookie and it looks really nice. I also used some Spattered Crimson into Black Green into Golden Highlight which I really like as well. And then Nightshade into Clouded Sky into Pure White for some 'steel'. Just having fun and trying things. I work them out on paper first, see how they go into each other, what amount of each I need, etc.

 

My mixes are usually just with water. Maybe a little extender when I'm doing eyes because I'm so slow due to 'practice swings' before lowering the brush to actually make contact. I love the consistency of MSP vs VGC and P3. I use the HD line pretty interchangeably.

 

At some point I'd like to experiment with mixing with clears, figure out which HD paints to sub in for base coats, etc, for troublesome coverage hues, play with the liners, try some inks. That's one of the great things about the hobby, there is so much to experiment, play with, and learn!

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For those of you having difficulty visualizing what the term saturation (or chroma) means, I found that a color sphere is the best way to visually illustrate the concept.

 

munsell-sphere.png

 

A)  The column in the center illustrates two things. Value (light to dark) and Desaturation. The column would be considered fully desaturated of hue (no color). 

B)  The ring around the column illustrates Hue (what we think of as pure color). The ring of hues would be considered to be the highest saturation of color.

C)  In this illustration the green colors between the column of values and the ring of hues illustrate the gradients of Saturation (or chroma) for the Hue (color).

 

This color sphere has been simplified down to it's very most basic elements. It's good for illustrating what the terms of color theory mean.

 

color-lecture-02.jpg

 

As we all know, there are an infinite number of colors and illustrating them all would be impossible.

 

I hope that helps take some of the mystery out of the color vocabulary.

 

If you really want to torture yourself, try to make a physical color sphere. In my college days I had an art professor that made us create a physical color sphere using Gouache paint. It was one of the most frustrating assignments I have ever worked on. I learned how to mix paint though and how color theory works with subtractive color. I wish I still had the sphere now or at the very least pictures of it. But it was bulky and I didn't really have a place to store it. So I donated it to an art classroom. 

Edited by DixonGrfx
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RMS are... too thin for me. TBH, perhaps of how I learnt to paint, I actually appreciate thicker paint that I can thin. RMS is like too thin out of the bottle.

May I ask a question?

 

If you intend to thin it anyway, then why is it "bad" that the paint is already partially thinned?  We knew going into this that many painters thinned their paints, so we designed our paint to already exhibit the quality that many were already in search of - coverage *and* thin, with the ability to be more thinned.

 

 

Sure Bryan!

 

As I said below, it has to do with how I learnt. As I used craft paints a lot of the time, most of my perceived dillutions involve quite a bit of water (I use glazes and thin dillutions a lot). While RMS thin nicely, being so thin already I find their... tolerance to extra water, my wet palette, or my mixing/dilution process is not good. 

 

I mean, I usually apply a little drop of paint, add medium/water and get a nice pool of color to paint with. With RMS, if I do that I find I overdiluted 9 times out of 10. So for me they are too thin and I need to adjust. 

 

Also, I am afraid to bring this up, perceived value. The above means that psychologically I am getting less surface coverage for each RMS pot, when compared to VMC. This is stupid, however, because I did not measure of how well they cover. 

 

To make it more complex and confuse you more, I am kinda evolving into a state where I value transparency more than thinness (is that a word??). So if I can get robust, not runny but transparent color with other paints (SC75 are excellent for this, as I think was apparent in my review video), RMS only fill a niche. It adapts to a style of painting (more solid color application) that is not my own.

 

It is also related that RMS are a minority in my table and I keep reaching for other colors in my collection of usual painting. Perhaps if I have chosen the paints instead of getting them out of the LTPKs, then I would stop going for VMC Red Leather and more into a similar RMS color, for example. 

 

Your white and linen white are some favorites of me, however. And Nightshade purple looks awesome, I want to try it soon.

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I started out with the cheap craft paints and after joining this forum I ended up getting a few LTPKs and from then on I've been a big fan of the RMSP line. 

 

My favorite paint colors that I like to use the most:

Breonne Blue

Sapphire Blue

HD Ice Blue

Deep Ocean

Monarch Purple

Imperial Purple

Linen White

Spattered Crimson

Gory Red

Cactus Flower - finding I really enjoy this one

HD Brilliant Red

Violet Red

Brown Liner

Blue Liner

Grey Liner (just got it, love it as well)

Palomino Gold

Golden Skin Triad

Tan Skin Triad

Leaf Green

Peacock Green

 

Non-paints:

Reaper Brush-on Sealer - It's MAGIC in a bottle!

Reaper Brush-on Primer

 

Just picked up the book that everyone around here keeps recommending, Color and Light by James Gurney. Haven't had a chance to dig in yet though as I have so many things on my paint desk at the moment.

 

After talking to Willen (quite often) about color theory, I put into practice most of the things he recommends to me when doing my work such as the glazing of dark red into green for shadows and vice versa.

 

Very interesting thread and I highly highly recommend we pin this thing for new folks to be able to read easily.

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That's all the colors you have oober? You are falling behind!  :blush:

 

Videos, videos... because they were mentioned.

 

I've seen Hot Lead... not really my cup of tea. I don't know, found it quite basic, but I guess that was the scope and intent of it.

 

Then, my first eye-opener was Jeremie Bonamant's Miniature Painting. Now that I've seen quite a few more videos, I certainly need to revisit that video! He talks about this "back and forth" of cold and warm colors in transition, something that didn't click until this week when reading more about light!

 

Finally, I got Miniature Mentor's subscription and got all the videos available right now except the last one by Alfonso Giraldez (  :grr:  ::(:  I love Banshee). Some of them were really useful for me, others not so much... but all of them help with little things here and there, little bits of precious insight, or inspiration. They also showed me true Master Painters flaws, missing a brush stroke, marring a paintjob, and recovering. THAT was enlightening, honestly I thought most great painters were perfect from the get go (well, not really, but you get the idea) and seeing a blend go from rough and horrible to incredible was a great confidence boost!

 

My favourites (I have not watched all yet):

- Laurent Esposito Mas "Miniature Painting" is the base, and nice video yet.

- Jennifer Haley "Monocrome" has some nice talks about texture, and uses thicker paint (RMS but thicker than the other painters in the series, in general terms).

- Allan Carrasco's video is great for seeing skin tones blending, and texture. Romain's "Demon" is also excellent.

- Thomas Davis' "Speedpainting" offers nice insight into shaded priming, and mixing paint with inks for translucense.

- Francesco Farabi's "Freehand" video is really nice at seeing a complex freehand develop, and understand how it builds up, and the need to correct and correct... plus an Italian speaking English, love the accent  :;):

- Ben Kometz and Mateo Murelli's two basing videos are somewhat overlaping, but if you like basing or want to learn some, ehem, "basic" tricks, they are very nice!

- Rick Lawler's Truck Weathering video comes from a different perspective (as is the big Mecha video) and I found them particularly interesting... seeing a military/modern plastic modeller use so many mediums and techniques without issues was revealing, and get me set into learning things beyond hobby acrylic paints!

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That's all the colors you have oober? You are falling behind!  :blush:

 

 

No sir, those are my "most used," I have probably 5x that many colors in my Reaper paint caddy.

 

Oh! Videos, I really dig James Wappel's videos, very informative!

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OK, so this is an awesome thread and thanks to Anne for starting it.

 

I use mostly P3 and Reaper paints.  I've recently started using Scale Color too and they've got some great offerings.  GW colors are fine, nothing special, but they're washes are awesome.  I absolutely hate Vallejo paints as I water down my paints so much they separate and I never, ever have that problem with Reaper or p3 despite doing really, really thin mixes compared to others here (probably shockingly so to some here).

 

I prime white for most stuff, prefer a light gray but I'm too lazy to mix these as white doesn't bother me, using Vallejo brush on primer (have reapers but the Vallejo is dirt cheap compared with the same coverage) and I only water down with distilled water (I'm in a very hard water area).  I've tried some mix-ins like drying retarder and flow improver but I don't need them for how I paint.

Best Colors

  • P3 Sanguine Base.  Flat out my favorite shade color as it works with anything.  I love it so much I had to force myself to stop using it as I was too reliant on it.
  • P3 Rusksack Tan.  My go to non-human skintone base.  It yellow base allows me to work in just about any color as a shade (green, red, purple--never tried a blue) and it really adjusts well and blends well.  I've been playing around with Reaper Olive Skin and finding it, so far, works similar but is much darker to start.
  • Scale Color Nacar.  An off white Khaki that is utterly amazing.  It blends with everything I've tried on so easily as a highlight and is a great color when transitioning to a white.  It's amazing.
  • P3 Skin Tones.  The reaper ones just don't work for me as human skin.  I have a hard time getting the look I want (have golden, olive, fair and rosy).  Fair is probably the best of the reaper. 

Frequently used colors

  • Reaper Fair Skin and Fair Skin highlight.  Great for leather and monster skin tone highlights.
  • Reaper Leather White.  Alternate leather highlight loo.
  • Reaper Oiled and Ruddy Leather. 
  • Reaper Polished silver.  I don't shade with other metallic so this is my base and highlight with a bit of pearl white.
  • Reaper Clockwork Brass.  I agree with Buglips on this color.
  • Reaper Gray Triad.  Don't like mixing grays, these are a big time saver.

 

Since we're talking about paints I want to bring up reaper's triads.  While I think the concept is great I find that I tend to only use two colors as there's not enough contrast between them for all three colors of be of much use as I'm either adding both extra shading and highlighting to them.  I tend to pretty much use the shade and highlight colors while dropping the base.  Now, sometimes, I'll still use the base at other times but not in conjunction with with the other colors but there's a lot of times I feel one color is a waste and I'll never use it.  Dusky Skin Triad is a prefect example of this for me.  I use it as an alternate to black for leather and cloth but find there's no real good contrast between the colors.  I really like what Scale Color does which is give you six colors and that gives you a great mix of shades, highlights and base colors.

 

How I use colors

 

I use to choose colors off of the mood\emotion that the color expresses, especially in the shading.  This lent itself to me always using a more limited pallet as I just went with the same purples, greens and reds.  So, to mix things up, I really only try to do that with skin but it's about 50% that and 50% "I wonder what it would look like if I used X as a base and Y as a shade".  I never really concern myself with highlights as they're boring and don't add anything to a piece outside of bright "plastic looking" paint jobs that are popular with some elements of the pro-community (black, or near black for shades, pure white for highlights).

 

Sometimes I plot out my colors based off of a photo or other image but I tend to prefer just grabbing what I'm in the mood for or what feels right over anything thought out.  it makes it hard to explain why I choose a color until way after the fact as I rarely ever think of a why.  Once that section of the mini is done I can generally state why it worked.

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I use mostly P3 and Reaper paints.  I've recently started using Scale Color too and they've got some great offerings.  GW colors are fine, nothing special, but they're washes are awesome.  I absolutely hate Vallejo paints as I water down my paints so much they separate and I never, ever have that problem with Reaper or p3 despite doing really, really thin mixes compared to others here (probably shockingly so to some here).

 

 

I don't want to sound like a Vallejo fanboy (I am not) but I never had that problem (and I too thin too much at times). I wonder if you could shoot a pic of that separation and send it to me, so I try to replicate it with my own paints. Perhaps we can find something that helps, if you want.

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I use mostly P3 and Reaper paints.  I've recently started using Scale Color too and they've got some great offerings.  GW colors are fine, nothing special, but they're washes are awesome.  I absolutely hate Vallejo paints as I water down my paints so much they separate and I never, ever have that problem with Reaper or p3 despite doing really, really thin mixes compared to others here (probably shockingly so to some here).

 

 

I don't want to sound like a Vallejo fanboy (I am not) but I never had that problem (and I too thin too much at times). I wonder if you could shoot a pic of that separation and send it to me, so I try to replicate it with my own paints. Perhaps we can find something that helps, if you want.

 

Thanks but I've talked with others on the forum about them and there are some Vallejo's that do this and they tend to be the ones that I bought.  I still have a stone gray, which is a great blue\yellow gray, and it constantly separates into yellow, blue and matte medium.  I have a red that does the same (red and what I assume is matte medium).  The others I got rid of as they weren't unique enough to justify spending more time remixing my paints then actually painting with them.

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