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Chaoswolf

Rules change?

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So as I sit here in a cabin up in Sundance, which is kind of odd as its basically a neighborhood with all the houses really close together and pine tress instead of grass, I've been thinking over some things and figure I'll post specifically what I'd like to do while keeping as close to the rules independent of the consolidated WIP threads that many of us love. This is so Mods can comment on solutions or take what I say into consideration for changes.

 

First off it would be nice if there were a way to book mark search queries. It quite possible to find all the show off threads and WIP threads for a particular person via the advanced search but, sadly, those searches cannot be saved. If Reaper would allow that (most forums have this as a setting, not sure about IP board) this would solve some issues I believe. This, if possible, is a better solution then the "find all content" search via the user profile as that searches all boards and only goes back about a year. People could then place the links into their sigs and allow for easy access to all their stuff with little work. This may allow for the flow of discussions and enthusiasm that many like to continue without extra work on the mods end.

 

Yes people could just do a dedicated list of WIP lists, much like there is for show off, but the forum already has the functionality needed and the search will allow us to see the most recently updated threads so they can follow the discussions--which I think is key as some many of us are worried about the clutter if the WIP forum and things getting lost.

 

My trouble is trying to deal with the RPG themed WIP threads I've started doing, and quite like, as I usually have no idea what I'll be painting up for many of them until about a month ahead of time, some times a week. Currently I'm doing an Asian themed one in 5th (as soon as we get the books) that will be a heavily modified and I spend a lot of time combing the internet for OOP stuff and other things that can fit (you'd be surprised at what you can find if you're willing to order from small shops in Europe that don't really have a Webstore). So, basically, listing everything in the first thread at the start would be difficult as I don't even know what I'll be working on until I find the right piece.

 

The reason I don't want to break up these into individual threads is because there's a theme and I'd like to keep a discussion about the game as well. People really seam to have been enjoying seeing how I'm changing the Jade Regent adventure path and what figures I'm finding to represent the various monsters and NPCs. I think there would be a great loss of that if each figure, or small \group of figures, were it's own thread. However, listing all the figures in the thread with anchor links, much like Cash does, will allow people to quickly find what they're looking for. What might be some alleviation to the mods is these RPG ones of mine would be short lived (don't run games longer then 16 months and try to keep them to 12) and front loaded as I build up models.

 

Thanks for reading and considering these two items.

Edited by MonkeySloth
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I'm with MonkeySloth on the themed WIP front. Even if the mods ultimately decide against the anything-goes "kitchen sink" WIPs, allowing tightly themed but long-term WIPs like MS's Jade Reagent thread would be a valuable compromise.

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Since it sounds like Bryan is tabulating opinions here, I'll share mine. I support single Show Off threads and consolidated WIP threads.

 

I only recently started posting in the WIP section, one being a consolidated Warlord army project thread, and the others being Group/Open threads that I feel greatly encourage community. It is my understanding that Group/Open threads run afoul of the new rules, so that will not continue. Several of the minis I plan to include in the Warlord army are part of Bones 2; therefore, the first post picture to continue that project will not be able to happen for several months.

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From my understanding, the group/open theeads are fine, as they tend to focus on a single figure.

 

For my 2cp, I enjoy the consolidated threads to a point. I don't find them that hard to follow since I am in the habit of marking things read en masse when I am as caught up as I like. I like being able to easily follow the work of a specific painter without fussing with the search.

 

That said, I understand the search problems when you're looking for inspiration for a specific mini. People are all over the place in terms of referencing what they're painting, and that is especially difficult in threads where painters jump around different projects in the same thread.

 

I don't mind changing the way I do things to see how it works. I hope we don't lose the input of a lot of talented people because of it.

 

P.S. I think multiple show offs is a good idea, too.

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I also started the group/open thread thing.

 

I'm either this board's greatest trendsetting asset or its biggest menace, depending who you ask. Possibly I am both.

face it, you disrupt the status quo wherever you go. Buglips, Catalyst for change (and carrier of various diseases and infections)

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I also started the group/open thread thing.

 

I'm either this board's greatest trendsetting asset or its biggest menace, depending who you ask. Possibly I am both.

face it, you disrupt the status quo wherever you go. Buglips, Catalyst for change (and carrier of various diseases and infections)

 

If Buglips is the Catalyst, I'd hate to see his White Prophet...

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I appear to have influence, somehow.  I'm not sure this is wise. 

 

In any case, since I am either directly responsible or suspected of same for the trends now causing some difficulty, I would like to note that this discussion here pretty much boils down to a conflict of needs.  Things I, uh, instigate are generally born out of ideas which I think serve the community spirit and give us new and fun things to do.  Generally this works out as such but, being weird and untested things, may also have unintended consequences.

 

I did not consider, for example, what the potential effect would be if, out of more than 10,000 members, 1% of us adopted the consolidated WIP style.  This did not occur, but certainly it's a possible thing.  With everything all in one thread, and some prolific production, each individual thread could easily get 3 or more updates per week.  With 100 threads like that, a tiny fraction of the membership, that could easily escalate so that the first 4-5 pages of the WIP forum become practically only those threads - crowding out others, and also crowding out newcomers.

 

Division allows more "flow-through".  If I am working on Takhisis, that thread only appears when it has a worthwhile update.  The rest of the time it is out of the way, waiting back on page 30 or something until next time.  My Kaladrax is done, so that thread is consigned to the ether unless it gets a visit from a necromantic poster.  If all of my work were in one place, this wouldn't happen.  Instead, any time I did anything (or got a comment on anything) my thread would take a Page One slot.  With some prolific production on my part, I'd never leave page one.  Great for my visibility, and popularity, but not so great when it comes to "fair access" for eyeballs. 

 

This is largely why I favour splitting my work up, because in the 3-4 days since I started 02001 Reaper of Famine, it's moved off page one and made way for new stuff.  In this case, since I haven't been painting the last few days, we could argue this would have happened in any case regardless of thread format.  However, that thread is only attracting comments for that singular project.  If instead there were other projects in there, people who found it over the last few days may have been compelled to comment on projects months old - thus artificially boosting the thread's position. 

 

Moreover, I get rewarded for bumping a consolidated thread.  Every time my Bones thread got an update, old posts accumulated more views and likes.  Thus I have a vested interest in updating more often, and this contributes to the crowding-out effect previously noted.

 

This was on my mind before the discussion about changing formats came up, because I was increasingly concerned that my big thread may be unfairly poaching views and kudos from new participants - which was the opposite effect of the community participation intent I had from the beginning.  It's the single biggest factor why that thread got fewer updates and I worked on things without posting them.  Also a lot of why I enthusiastically embrace the new rules.  I hadn't figured out an answer to the issue I was concerned about, but Reaper provided a solution by stating other issues (moderation issues, etc.) that they were concerned about. 

 

I sort of feel, as a member of the community that people listen to (god knows why), that I have a dual responsibility - on the one hand, to try and make the user community experience a vibrant, participatory, and entertaining one.  On the other, to follow Reaper's rules and their own particular needs and concerns as best I am able.  These things may occassionally come into conflict, as we see here, but that does not make them mutually exclusive.  They are, in my view, equal duties.  I occasionally come up with ideas that are fun, that people enjoy, but that cause unforeseen problems.  When that happens, if Reaper makes a statement regarding them, I feel I have an obligation to work towards preserving the intent while also addressing the concerns of our hosts.  

 

But:  Where the ideas conflict, Reaper's needs must take precedence.  This is my most solid rule.  It doesn't matter how good an idea I thought something was - if Reaper has concerns about it, and I can't think of an accomodation which satisfies all parameters, then my idea must be dropped and swept away.  If that is the case here, with the discussion of thread style, then I think that applies to us as a whole community:  either we find reasonable accomodation or we adopt the new rules and work within them.  It's nice that Reaper is willing to discuss the matter with us, but I certainly feel they have no obligation to do so.  I appreciate it, and I respect it, and I think it speaks well of them as good hosts - but if they just issued the new rules without explanation I would abide by them as best I am able.  I trust them enough to assume the decision is not a capricious one taken without due consideration.  

 

For me, that's where the "broccoli" statement comes in - which is Reaper saying we should try things out before we start to complain too much.  I think that's a good idea, actually, since it tests out the difference in styles and gives us all a clearer understanding of the merits of both.  Because there are merits to both, it's just a matter of which one serves the myriad of interests best for all.  

 

Certainly I believe that if we tried Reaper's sugestion for a few months and the end result turned out to be an anemic community then this would be noticed, and then it might result in a re-evaluation of the policy (so long as this was done in good faith, don't take that as a suggestion to make things anemic as a form of protest).  Reaper benefits from an active community, and they are aware of this.  They feel that changing styles can preserve that and eliminate some present issues.  I'm inclined to agree, but in any case I'm all the way inclined to try it out and see.  And I think it's better to try it out and see than it is to protest.  If it's a better way, then we all know it is.  If it isn't, then we have proof of same and maybe we can reach different accomodation or idea exchange to try to reduce the problems.   

 

So for my part, as Forum Mascot and dude people listen to for some reason, I plead with everybody to come together as a community and try out the broccoli. 

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As the guy who started this thread, I'm not sure if I should be apologizing for creating problems (the thread has gotten a bit heated here and there; as others have stated communication through strictly written word posts has some drawbacks), or feel good for providing the impetus for the discussion. Or something in between.

 

 

Anyhow, I have no particular issues with the proposed changes, for the most part. I know I don't really have any room to talk, seeing as I've got all of perhaps a half dozen figures posted here (good luck finding 'em). I can see both sides of the consolidated WIP thread debate; some of them are absolutely phenomenal (check out Pixel's noob thread for a truly inspiring journey from just starting out to WOW!), at the same time, I can understand the frustration of trying to find inspiration on how to paint miniature X in a pages long thread. I forsee this being a difficult thing to resolve to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Individual show-offs makes sense to me, with stipulations. It is perfectly reasonable to say 1 mini per show off. What about a tight group of related minis in one show off, like all of Tre Manor's orcs from KS1, in the same thread? That also seems reasonable. (I know some of this is a rehash of what's already been said, but it's what's on my mind, so I'm saying it anyhow.)

 

Perhaps a slightly different set of rules should be incorporated into other sections of 'Craft Corner'. I hate to keep pinging on this, (especially since I believe it's already been resolved) but Malefactus's thread in the terrain and conversions sub forum is an excellent example. It's part WIP, part 'how-to', and part show off, all in the same thread. IMO, the thread should be kept together, as it's a giant showcase of the same style of work. Perhaps 'one thread to rule them all' would be more appropriate in certain sub forums such as this one? I mean hills are hills, and trees are trees, at least for the most part, right? If I have an interest in making some terrain for my toy soldiers to fight over, or just for taking pictures on, I'd rather skim through one or two consolidated threads then a hundred different ones, especially if the only real difference is right hand corner hill versus left hand corner hill.

 

I had though of another idea a couple of days ago, but was keeping quiet about it, since I see it causing more problems than it solves. Since I'm here anyway, here it is:

Set a drop dead date for the changes. Anything after the date will be done according to the new rules. Anything in existence prior to the date will get grandfathered in.

Like I said, I see this causing confusion, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to be told 'that's a dumb idea. Hush'

 

All that said, I'm probably not going to be posting a bunch of WIP's any time soon. There are 3 reasons for this:

1--I'm lazy. I can't be arsed to take a photo every time I add another color or two to a figure.

2--Most of what I paint, I aim for 'good enough' or 'basic table top' level. I don't see the point to asking for help just to be 'good enough'. This doesn't mean that I'm not open to trying new things and trying to improve, though. I will be posting WIP's to ask for help/advice once I get around to working on some of the bigger stuff I have coming in Bones 2.

3--I've been in and out of a pretty bad depression for at least the last year; this isn't particularly relevant other than to say that the number of things I've started, let alone finished, doesn't even approach 20 (and no, there's no weird goblin math involved with that number). Mustering up enough ambition to take pics of what little I've done is fairly impossible.

 

To finish up, I'd like to ask everyone to be patient and let our hosts do what they do. Continue to post your thoughts and opinions, but please try to keep it friendly, and therefore, more productive.

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[...]It quite possible to find all the show off threads and WIP threads for a particular person via the advanced search but, sadly, those searches cannot be saved. If Reaper would allow that (most forums have this as a setting, not sure about IP board) this would solve some issues I believe. This, if possible, is a better solution then the "find all content" search via the user profile as that searches all boards and only goes back about a year. [...]

 

How is this done? this advanced search. I tried it. I used your user name. I got every post you had ever made in the craft corner...but my aim was to find every thread you had started and only those. Entering "Started by MonkeySloth" enclosed in quotes in the search terms field did not help.

 

What am I doing wrong?

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[...]It quite possible to find all the show off threads and WIP threads for a particular person via the advanced search but, sadly, those searches cannot be saved. If Reaper would allow that (most forums have this as a setting, not sure about IP board) this would solve some issues I believe. This, if possible, is a better solution then the "find all content" search via the user profile as that searches all boards and only goes back about a year. [...]

 

How is this done? this advanced search. I tried it. I used your user name. I got every post you had ever made in the craft corner...but my aim was to find every thread you had started and only those. Entering "Started by MonkeySloth" enclosed in quotes in the search terms field did not help.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

 

You need to go to the member page to find topics an individual has started. So in this circumstance I would go to the members tab, search for Monkeysloth and once on that page click on the "topics" subtitle on the left. That will show you all the topics he has started.

Although when I do that I only see the last topic he started. mmm

Edited by Heisler

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I have not posted to convey my opinion as of yet due to others already pointing out so many valid points. Also, I do not like the idea of inflaming any emotions.

 

I will just say that I am in favor of one Show Off per mini or unit of minis. I am also in favor of the option to post a WIP thread that encompasses everything a painter gets to over time. I would be satisfied with this having no limit or having a time limit (such as the suggested thread for each year or something).

 

I greatly enjoy being able to direct people to my thread that aren't even on the Reaper forums. I send them to specific posts that I want to share or think they would like (especially my daughter's paint jobs).

 

I realize that this basically reiterates what has already been said, so please forgive the repetition. I just wanted to make sure my thoughts were thrown into the tally.

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I did not consider, for example, what the potential effect would be if, out of more than 10,000 members, 1% of us adopted the consolidated WIP style. This did not occur, but certainly it's a possible thing. With everything all in one thread, and some prolific production, each individual thread could easily get 3 or more updates per week. With 100 threads like that, a tiny fraction of the membership, that could easily escalate so that the first 4-5 pages of the WIP forum become practically only those threads - crowding out others, and also crowding out newcomers.

As someone who only recently started a WIP, I never felt that I was being "crowded out" by any of the longer running threads. People update when they update and when they do yesterday's posts get bumped to the next page.  I just came over here from CMON's WIP section and I see a new WIP by DMcc.  It's right next to 10 ball's, Skel's, and Milosh's long running WIPs, and it doesn't look crowded out to me.

 

Division allows more "flow-through". If I am working on Takhisis, that thread only appears when it has a worthwhile update. The rest of the time it is out of the way, waiting back on page 30 or something until next time. My Kaladrax is done, so that thread is consigned to the ether unless it gets a visit from a necromantic poster. If all of my work were in one place, this wouldn't happen. Instead, any time I did anything (or got a comment on anything) my thread would take a Page One slot. With some prolific production on my part, I'd never leave page one. Great for my visibility, and popularity, but not so great when it comes to "fair access" for eyeballs.

Flow through is not always a positive. From your example above, if you split your 100 consolidate WIPs into individual WIP and say those posters have a few things going on at once and are actually posting them, 100 threads updated 3 times per week could become 300 threads updated once per week. Now my new WIP feels crowded out. The feeling I'm getting from this thread is that this scenario wouldn't happen because most people aren't going to bother tracking multiple WIP for tabletop figures. It's something I'm now contemplating as I have a stack of a dozen or so bones sitting out that I want to work on in the near future, but they're not a "group" and I don't really feel like tracking them individually.

 

Moreover, I get rewarded for bumping a consolidated thread. Every time my Bones thread got an update, old posts accumulated more views and likes. Thus I have a vested interest in updating more often, and this contributes to the crowding-out effect previously noted.

Your old posts are accumulating more views and like because people that haven't seen them before are now discovering them. Had you split everything up, they would have been missed. Speaking personally, you were over 20 pages into your bones thread when I first saw it. It was a fun read. If you would have broken it up by individual figure I would never have seen most of it. I see more positive in this than negative. ::):

 

For me, that's where the "broccoli" statement comes in - which is Reaper saying we should try things out before we start to complain too much. I think that's a good idea, actually, since it tests out the difference in styles and gives us all a clearer understanding of the merits of both. Because there are merits to both, it's just a matter of which one serves the myriad of interests best for all.

Could we please just quit using the "broccoli" analogy?  <_<  While it doesn't bother me, it's the kind of thing a parent tells a five year old so I can see how a lot of guys might construe it as being condescending. That in turn means it's not really being a productive part of the conversation.

 

You know though, analogies can be used both ways so here's one from the other side. I grew up in a rural area and there were a good number of my friends growing up who had parents/uncles/grandparents with livestock. Now I've never owned a barn, and I've never owned any cattle, but I don't have to buy 50 head and stick them in a barn to know what it's going to smell like.

 

Just another way of saying that I joined my first forum back in the '90s... I'm going to go feel old for a bit.

 

Certainly I believe that if we tried Reaper's sugestion for a few months and the end result turned out to be an anemic community then this would be noticed, and then it might result in a re-evaluation of the policy (so long as this was done in good faith, don't take that as a suggestion to make things anemic as a form of protest). Reaper benefits from an active community, and they are aware of this. They feel that changing styles can preserve that and eliminate some present issues. I'm inclined to agree, but in any case I'm all the way inclined to try it out and see. And I think it's better to try it out and see than it is to protest. If it's a better way, then we all know it is. If it isn't, then we have proof of same and maybe we can reach different accomodation or idea exchange to try to reduce the problems.

 

So for my part, as Forum Mascot and dude people listen to for some reason, I plead with everybody to come together as a community and try out the broccoli.

 

Anyway, speaking of searches, I did a quick test of the forum's search function the way in which I tend to search.

 

Basic search:

 

"Yephima" - 57 hits. It does have a broad assortment since basic search includes Off-Topic, but the search function does a good job of finding words in posts and directing you to them.

 

"77162" - 35 hits. We lose a few hits, largely from OT, but also from people like me that don't think in terms of SKUs.

 

Tag search:

 

"Yephima" 6 hits. Yeah, a lot of people either don't tag or use a more general tag such as "giant."

 

"77162" 2 hits. Two hits is really not very useful.

 

So at least for this figure, it seems "tag" searches alone are not currently a very useful function.

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[...]It quite possible to find all the show off threads and WIP threads for a particular person via the advanced search but, sadly, those searches cannot be saved. If Reaper would allow that (most forums have this as a setting, not sure about IP board) this would solve some issues I believe. This, if possible, is a better solution then the "find all content" search via the user profile as that searches all boards and only goes back about a year. [...]

 

How is this done? this advanced search. I tried it. I used your user name. I got every post you had ever made in the craft corner...but my aim was to find every thread you had started and only those. Entering "Started by MonkeySloth" enclosed in quotes in the search terms field did not help.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

 

You need to go to the member page to find topics an individual has started. So in this circumstance I would go to the members tab, search for Monkeysloth and once on that page click on the "topics" subtitle on the left. That will show you all the topics he has started.

Although when I do that I only see the last topic he started. mmm

 

Search for my name as author, title only (this is what isn't easy to notice) in wip.

 

As I mentioned in my post, if you go via my user profile page it will only go back a year and isn't refineable to just one board.

 

If people are still having trouble getting the advanced search right I'll post a image of what needs to be changed later tonight. Edit, here's a link to an image (it's large so not embedding it): https://fxdcpq.by3302.livefilestore.com/y2pucJzXny_4hzY9j1M17ehPsnTumlsxocWorejI5g8C4RT12CPVk1BoobTeQmJK-E7YY7zuZR0QCk3rowWu_wHVWTnSoc7L3Awb240TT7tpq4/Screenshot%20%281%29.png?psid=1

 

As for Broccoli, I love it--it's my favorite vegetable. WIP clutter, however, I don't like. Did single WIP threads for 6 months here when I first arrived and didn't like it, no need to go try again. Those experiences, however, allowed me to write up the previous post with a suggestion about how to use current forum functionality (with a minor change) that could help with people's concerns.

Edited by MonkeySloth
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[...]It quite possible to find all the show off threads and WIP threads for a particular person via the advanced search but, sadly, those searches cannot be saved. If Reaper would allow that (most forums have this as a setting, not sure about IP board) this would solve some issues I believe. This, if possible, is a better solution then the "find all content" search via the user profile as that searches all boards and only goes back about a year. [...]

 

How is this done? this advanced search. I tried it. I used your user name. I got every post you had ever made in the craft corner...but my aim was to find every thread you had started and only those. Entering "Started by MonkeySloth" enclosed in quotes in the search terms field did not help.

 

What am I doing wrong?

 

 

You need to go to the member page to find topics an individual has started. So in this circumstance I would go to the members tab, search for Monkeysloth and once on that page click on the "topics" subtitle on the left. That will show you all the topics he has started.

Although when I do that I only see the last topic he started. mmm

 

Search for my name as author, title only (this is what isn't easy to notice) in wip.

 

As I mentioned in my post, if you go via my user profile page it will only go back a year and isn't refineable to just one board.

 

If people are still having trouble getting the advanced search right I'll post a image of what needs to be changed later tonight. Edit, here's a link to an image (it's large so not embedding it): https://fxdcpq.by3302.livefilestore.com/y2pucJzXny_4hzY9j1M17ehPsnTumlsxocWorejI5g8C4RT12CPVk1BoobTeQmJK-E7YY7zuZR0QCk3rowWu_wHVWTnSoc7L3Awb240TT7tpq4/Screenshot%20%281%29.png?psid=1

 

As for Broccoli, I love it--it's my favorite vegetable. WIP clutter, however, I don't like. Did single WIP threads for 6 months here when I first arrived and didn't like it, no need to go try again. Those experiences, however, allowed me to write up the previous post with a suggestion about how to use current forum functionality (with a minor change) that could help with people's concerns.

 

Thanks. I understand the search engine a little better. I was able to find your threads. I was not able to find any result when I tried "malefactus". I was able to find the one thread I started.

 

I think I understand why. It does not (and cannot?) search the "Started by" field. Malefactus did not put his user name in the title field. In my case my user name is too short to search for and it is not included in the one thread I made in any case.

 

 

Notes and asides for Kit, etal: It might be ree-ee-eally useful to be able to search that "Started by" field.

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