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papabees

CAVSO True Scale

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I was just kidding around. Except for the implied fanboyism. I am totally a squealing fanboy.

*squeals*

*throws pants at JBR*

Am I the only one who finds this mildly disturbing?

 

 

Maybe, but I think the more disturbing question is whether JBR caught them...

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Your argument is misleading. The CAVs have always been true scale (minus a few long out-of-production versions). Aircraft are being rescaled anyway so don't count. Infantry are in scale. Of the 26 vehicles currently produced, only 13 were ever made out of scale, and at least three of them (Ashigaru, Chieftain, Hornet) have been re-released in true scale. That's 16 in true scale and 10 that are too small. So it should be easier and more sensible to scale the 10 undersized models to the rest of the line, than to scale the 16 true scale models back out of scale to match the 10 undersized vehicles.

 

As someone who loves these models, please reconsider. The vehicles being out of scale was a constant headache for CAV 2; take the opportunity to fix it, rather than making it worse.

Vil I can't remember the list? Do you have it? of the models I mean?

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JOR2, p35:  Despot Height: 14'

That means a 1/180 model would need to be 24mm high.

 

If it's not, then Reaper is flat out lying with their KS in the FAQ. I could initially say that it might have been a mistake/oversight, but how long has this discussion been going on here (again)?

 

I'm more then a bit annoyed that this kind of crap wasn't ironed out before the KS, I would think that this is one of the first things you figure out when you start a KS that's supposed to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for miniatures... This isn't rocket science!

 

Why weren't folks as critical of the first two Bones KS? Because a small Orc or a large Dwarf happen, not all people are equally tall or short. When was the last time you saw a short Centurion II driving around? CAV is an established IP were they already stated out a lot of the vehicles with dimensions. It's not just about not living up to the established dimensions, it's also about physical impossibilities. I'm not talking about impossible designs regarding physics, I'm talking about access hatches on the Despot that a normal person wouldn't fit through or a cockpit that's obviously to small...

 

Will this stop me from buying 20+ of every vehicle? No, but I'm pretty nuts, folks less dedicated might think differently and drop their pledges. Future sales might also suffer. And I still don't see any reason why this discrepancy in scale should be made, it's not the cost, it's not ability, it's some vague misplaced idea that it would do a disservice to the CAVs... Madness I say! CAV certainly isn't the only Mecha game with scale issues, BT is a total mess and even Heavy Gear has some rather large consistency issues. CAV now has the opportunity to be different then the competition, changing to the correct scale after this KS is completed is a very expensive project and I don't expect to see that happen in my lifetime (and I intent to be around for another 60+ years) if ever.

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Aside from the aircraft that I know are up in the air scale wise (hehe, you see what I did there), it has been stated that CAV will be 10mm or roughly 1/180 scale. Assuming that is accurate, an M1A1 with gun forward is 32.04ft. The hull length is 26.02ft. Since guns can vary quite a bit, especially in scifi, I'll use the hull length.

 

So 26' * 12" = 312" / 180(scale) = 1.73" would be the hull for an M1. This falls just under the hull size of the Wolverine and Dragoon. The Despot hull in the metal one is 1.5". With gun forward it is 2". It really needs to be about 1.7 - 1.75" hull length or 2.25" with gun forward to be correct to 10mm. So it would be about a 1.15% increase which would also hit close to the 14ft height listed in the JOR (this model is a little vague because of the nature of the missile launcher).

 

I had a pic on my phone of the Wolverine next to a Despot and Regent but can't seem to figure out how to load it. Vil did make a good point in that more models are in "true scale" at this point than not so to have a consistent scale throughout it makes some sense to up-size the remaining 10 or so.

 

That said you guys (Reaper) can do what they want as far as model size, but I would like to know definitively so going forward so can we get hull sizes listed for the vees somewhere. I'm not a total scale nut but do want the models to look fairly consistent with what I already have on the table.

Edited by papabees
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JOR2, p35:  Despot Height: 14'

That means a 1/180 model would need to be 24mm high.

 

If it's not, then Reaper is flat out lying with their KS in the FAQ. I could initially say that it might have been a mistake/oversight, but how long has this discussion been going on here (again)?

 

I'm more then a bit annoyed that this kind of crap wasn't ironed out before the KS, I would think that this is one of the first things you figure out when you start a KS that's supposed to generate hundreds of thousands of dollars for miniatures... This isn't rocket science!

 

Why weren't folks as critical of the first two Bones KS? Because a small Orc or a large Dwarf happen, not all people are equally tall or short. When was the last time you saw a short Centurion II driving around? CAV is an established IP were they already stated out a lot of the vehicles with dimensions. It's not just about not living up to the established dimensions, it's also about physical impossibilities. I'm not talking about impossible designs regarding physics, I'm talking about access hatches on the Despot that a normal person wouldn't fit through or a cockpit that's obviously to small...

 

Will this stop me from buying 20+ of every vehicle? No, but I'm pretty nuts, folks less dedicated might think differently and drop their pledges. Future sales might also suffer. And I still don't see any reason why this discrepancy in scale should be made, it's not the cost, it's not ability, it's some vague misplaced idea that it would do a disservice to the CAVs... Madness I say! CAV certainly isn't the only Mecha game with scale issues, BT is a total mess and even Heavy Gear has some rather large consistency issues. CAV now has the opportunity to be different then the competition, changing to the correct scale after this KS is completed is a very expensive project and I don't expect to see that happen in my lifetime (and I intent to be around for another 60+ years) if ever.

 

Let's be careful here. Reaper has shown themselves over and over again to do right by their customers and be very forthright. They are a refreshing company. The JOR stats may no longer be cannon so to use that as the holy grail (although I did use it for my measurements - full disclosure) might be unfair. Some of your points are valid but let's give them time to consider and respond before we start name calling. CAVBoss has been pretty open to suggestion in regards to this stuff (he renamed one of the CAVs just because we liked it better) so let's not get the pitchforks out just yet.

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There's some rattle in wargaming scales, that's just a fact. They're not strict, and the models are usually not strictly proportional. Even then, CAV is already, officially, getting a slight size adjustment outside of scale considerations.

 

So I'd like everything to be in "the same scale", meaning, roughly 10mm, give or take a few percent, give or take some room for adjustments for relative size tweaking for aesthetics, give or take the usually exaggerated proportions, plus or minus some "cool" factor, just like the 28mm "scale". Remember the scale is loose, and remember some stuff is gaining or losing some TV pounds in the fluff.

 

(For what it's worth I don't mind 10mm stuff being a smidgen small, but make a dictator for 28mm and I'd prefer it to be at least 5% too big!)

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Let's be careful here. Reaper has shown themselves over and over again to do right by their customers and be very forthright. They are a refreshing company. The JOR stats may no longer be cannon so to use that as the holy grail (although I did use it for my measurements - full disclosure) might be unfair. Some of your points are valid but let's give them time to consider and respond before we start name calling. CAVBoss has been pretty open to suggestion in regards to this stuff (he renamed one of the CAVs just because we liked it better) so let's not get the pitchforks out just yet.

 

 

CAVBOSS has been quite open, no argument there. I think that 'refreshing' is an overstatement ;-)

 

The thing that annoys me quite a bit is that this issue got dragged up months ago (again), it was discussed with CAVBOSS, I didn't read the conclusions, but given the timespan I assumed things had been decided and we would see it in the KS. When the KS FAQ said 10mm (1/180), the assumption was that they decided to rescale everything consistently. Half way through the KS we find out that there's no decision been made at all. It gives me the impression that we aren't being told everything, that of course leads to assumptions and to date those assumptions have been wrong. It's not an issue about size of the molds or costs. But then we get some really strange story about 'large' vehicles detracting from the CAV element, asif we the customers can't make that decision for ourselves, we can't choose to not use vehicles we think to large (which I doubt many would). We now have 3 days to go and we still don't have a decision. As I said, I have pledged and don't expect my pledge to change due to whatever exact scale they decide on, but I can really understand it if others either want to know that before they throw money at the KS, this indecision is hurting the KS imho and makes it difficult to endorse it to others because I can't in good conscious say that it's 10mm (1/180) and explaining the situation isn't going to make people want to pledge if they're interested in the vehicles.

 

If folks really want to play with smaller vehicles they can buy the older metal models directly from Reaper, folks that want to play with the correctly proportioned vehicles can't do that if the Bones version isn't correctly scaled.

 

If the JOR stats are no longer relevant, make that clear in the same FAQ as the scale question.

 

CAV is a combined arms game with a focus on CAVs, Mecha that aren't as tall or as small as the competition (BT/HG), it's been that way forever. CAV could also cater to the BT crowd by using a bigger scale for their CAVs, the vehicles might have been kept small because of blister sizes, but oddly enough that also meant that suddenly a lot of the vehicles were also compatible with BT scale wise... It feels like that the folks currently in charge of CAV want to change certain aspects of the idea/game/universe, either by making CAVs seem bigger, make the combined arms element less important, etc. Maybe I'm completely wrong but with the reactions I've read this is what it adds up to in my book and that imho isn't a smart idea, it alienates older CAV fans and confuses people new to CAV to no end. That the rulebook is not part of the KS is already confusing a lot of folks to no end, even if it's been repeated many times...

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Papabees: I'm pretty sure the thread with the whole list was lost in the great forum wipe, but I was able to piece together the following from an old Mil-Net thread:

Out of Scale: Ashigaru*, Chieftain*, Hunter, Despot, Flail, Hornet*, Lance, Manticore, Naginata, Poltergeist, Sabre, Spike, Raider

True Scale: Banshee, Centipede, Dingo, Dragoon, Malefactor, Nomad, Outlaw, Ryoshi, Scarab, Stiletto, Warden , Wolf, Wolverine

*later remade in true scale

 

For most of the out of scale models, it's more than a couple of millimeters--they're noticeably smaller when placed next to CAVs, particularly in height and size of gun barrels. I don't have mine on hand to measure, but I'd estimate some are easily 1/3 smaller than they should be.

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I'll acknowledge that at least CAVBOSS has been willing to discuss these changes. I am very much struggling, however, to see the reasoning behind what now sounds to be a moderate number of completely arbitrary scale adjustments. I know there aren't a lot of old CAV players around, but throwing out three game editions worth of precedent (I'm counting 1.5) in model roles and information is really doing them a disservice. Not to mention the scale problems anyone using mixed metal and plastic is going to have.

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For most of the out of scale models, it's more than a couple of millimeters--they're noticeably smaller when placed next to CAVs, particularly in height and size of gun barrels. I don't have any on hand to measure, but I'd estimate some are easily 1/3 smaller than they should be.

 

1/3 smaller is what Reaper always said about the early vehicles.

 

Has there been any official word if they're making new masters for the Bones molds? If Reaper is just planning on using existing masters to create the molds, that would explain the hesitation to make the Despot out-of-scale. It'd also mean that the Naginata would be too small. And it's even more horribly out of scale than the Despot. The guns on that thing are so puny that they don't look like they could scratch the paint on a Puma.

Edited by Chrome
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Papabees: I'm pretty sure the thread with the whole list was lost in the great forum wipe, but I was able to piece together the following from an old Mil-Net thread:

Out of Scale: Ashigaru*, Chieftain*, Hunter, Despot, Flail, Hornet*, Lance, Manticore, Naginata, Poltergeist, Sabre, Spike, Raider

True Scale: Banshee, Centipede, Dingo, Dragoon, Malefactor, Nomad, Outlaw, Ryoshi, Scarab, Stiletto, Warden , Wolf, Wolverine

*later remade in true scale

 

For most of the out of scale models, it's more than a couple of millimeters--they're noticeably smaller when placed next to CAVs, particularly in height and size of gun barrels. I don't have any on hand to measure, but I'd estimate some are easily 1/3 smaller than they should be.

I believe the Flail was also made in true scale (yep, 07116). So then the models that are too small by the "True Scale" standard are:

Hunter, Despot, Lance (although it's pretty big, but pretty ugly as well so a whole new model wouldn't break my heart ::):), Manticore, Naginata (again, borderline), Poltergeist, Sabre, Spike and Raider.

 

So 9 models (with two maybes included).

 

So the question then I guess is, are the vehicles going to be upsized to the "Wolverine scale" or downsized to the "Despot scale"?

Edited by papabees
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Papabees: I'm pretty sure the thread with the whole list was lost in the great forum wipe, but I was able to piece together the following from an old Mil-Net thread:

Out of Scale: Ashigaru*, Chieftain*, Hunter, Despot, Flail, Hornet*, Lance, Manticore, Naginata, Poltergeist, Sabre, Spike, Raider

True Scale: Banshee, Centipede, Dingo, Dragoon, Malefactor, Nomad, Outlaw, Ryoshi, Scarab, Stiletto, Warden , Wolf, Wolverine

*later remade in true scale

 

For most of the out of scale models, it's more than a couple of millimeters--they're noticeably smaller when placed next to CAVs, particularly in height and size of gun barrels. I don't have any on hand to measure, but I'd estimate some are easily 1/3 smaller than they should be.

I believe the Flail was also made in true scale. So then the models that are too small by the "True Scale" standard are:

Hunter, Despot, Lance (although it's pretty big), Manticore, Naginata (again, borderline), Poltergeist, Sabre, Spike and Raider.

 

So 9 models (with two maybes included)

 

 

Could have been (and sounds right now that you mention it), I had no way of confirming since everything in the store has been renamed and renumbered. The Lance, while reasonably wide, is very low to the ground and has a relatively small gun barrel. And the Naginata is supposed to be a heavy tank--it's the only one with two primary weapons!

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