CAVSO True Scale

[falstius]

I'm new to wargaming but looking forward to getting my CAV models. From the newbie, I'm okay with planes being a different scale than the ground forces because of perspective. From the ground, that CAV will look way bigger than a low flying plane. I like the size of the "true scale" tsukei.

[Foxden Racing]

@Cergorach:  I meant me as the mook!  You seem to know what you're talking about, I'm flying by the seat of my pants here.

 

@CAVBOSS: Where tanks came from was my doing...started talking about proportions, the size of tanks in relation to mechs in relation to planes.

[Vil-hatarn]

You probably could have been a bit clearer from the outset about what you were doing with scale, given that CAV has a fairly complicated history with scale changes and compromises...I imagine most of the confusion is simply because there's been so much talk of rescaling this and rescaling that that no one's clear what's in scale to begin with.

[Pegazus]

I've gotten it into my head that I want to make a true scale dropship, possibly taking it to Reapercon. Only problem is that with my edumahkashun, I'd have to run the design basics and make it at least conceptually airworthy. But I'm thinking the shipping crate would be prohibitive.

[CAVBOSS]

I know Vil. I just haven't had a chance to go in and measure every mini. The ones you can just look at and know they are "wrong" is easy. Its all the other ones that it gets squirrelly. Also I wasn't trying to snap at anyone if anyone took it that way. Just trying to make sure we don't get off on another tangent.

[Girot]

Scale wars!! Pew pew pew!!

[Foxden Racing]

I know Vil. I just haven't had a chance to go in and measure every mini. The ones you can just look at and know they are "wrong" is easy. Its all the other ones that it gets squirrelly. Also I wasn't trying to snap at anyone if anyone took it that way. Just trying to make sure we don't get off on another tangent.

 

I'll admit it, it gave me pause for a minute.

 

But y'know, thinking about it...you ought to be proud.  Here's a game that's been quiet for years, announced as coming back from the dead just two weeks ago...and people are so excited about it that they're talking scales and taking pictures and taking it upon themselves to screw with it in photoshop to make suggestions on how to solve the accuracy vs aesthetics conundrum...I don't think, for as long as I've been a member here, and as long as I lurked before that, that I've *ever* seen the CAV section this alive.

[smokingwreckage]

I think if you put a 1/2 inch on the "true scale" tsuiseki it'd still be reasonable, and would be plenty big enough to be called true scale. Remember even cockpits will be smaller, because 1/2 of it is support and control systems.

 

I think most people will be delighted at big-acre aircraft, but it is down to CAVBoss and I'll buy it when funds come in regardless.

[Doug Sundseth]

 

There's a pretty significant advantage to lying down when under high-G. Which is partly why the F-16 has a tilted pilot's seat (and a raised foot position). And if you're reclining, you'll need to have a canopy transparent down to, or at least near, your feet. (Always assuming that you're using the Eyeball Mk. 1 rather than some combination of electronics and screens.)

 

 

If you don't use Mk.1 you don't need a canopy. While lying down on your back, feet forward, might improve your tolerance to high G forces due to acceleration forward, it doesn't really help with High Gs due to maneuvering. You don't want to have a nasty kink in your neck while laying on your back and trying to look forward. Not to mention that controls will be a pain, because most of the time your arms would be fighting gravity and rudder pedals for the feet would be unpractical. I think that pilots would try to dive bomb who ever thought up such a design. Now, if it was some sort of Direct Neural Interface that would control the plane you could dump the pilot in some sort of fluid that would mitigate high G forces and lying down wouldn't be a problem, but again, you wouldn't need a canopy.

 

Nope, you do what an F-16 does and support everything (the arm is supported, so you only have to move your fingers to move the stick, and so on). Lying down means that the blood doesn't pool into the legs, so you get probably an extra G in your turn or pullup (the same thing, really) before blackout, which is a huge maneuvering advantage.

 

Is it the only possible design choice? No; there are visibility advantages to a more vertical seat. But it's a very reasonable design choice.

[smokingwreckage]

I'd assume lying dead flat in a pressurized pod full of goop with visual info being live-streamed through your neural interface :)

[Vil-hatarn]

A number of Borsig-Spline CAVs (Mantis, Scorpion, Spider) feature a cockpit set up something like a motorcycle, with the pilot leaning forward (details in the CAV 2 rulebook). So there's certainly precedent for variant cockpit designs.

[bhchan]

in regards to planes, scale, and the game, let me toss in this semi-rhetorical question:

 

if the planes are to-scale in the game, wouldn't you have to have 6' stilts for them to be based on?  and then, won't that throw off all the weapon ranges?

 

(if 1" = 15', CAV weapons don't go very far)

 

with that in mind, i'd probably say "it's ok, those are just representations..."

[smokingwreckage]

The models are meant to be representations in a scale. It's best with most minis games to consider the models in a fixed scale, and the positioning, movement, etc... the ground scale... as representative and fluid.

[Cergorach]

If it's only about representation, then use folded paper planes to play your games. But Reaper is a miniatures company, the few games they make are to sell more miniatures. If you say the miniatures are 10mm (1:180) scale, make sure they are. If a subrange isn't the same scale, be darned sure that you make that clear right from the start, put warning labels next to the pictures.

If it's not the money and only about the possible perceived size and focus of the miniatures, I call BS! Mostly Reaper makes miniatures for Fantasy RPGs, that was the focus of the Bones KS. RPGs are about the heroes doing things, they are the focus of the game. So why are there so many monsters that are far bigger then the hero miniatures? Why isn't everything only 30mm high if it only 'represents' something? Imho that's because the focus might be on the heroes, it's also what they do, they slay monsters. The bigger the monster the bigger the accomplishment. The same goes for CAV, if it was just about big stompy robots, there would have been handweaving and there wouldn't be infantry, vehicles of aircraft in the game. But folks want combined arms games, because no matter how cool big stompy robots are, so are big tanks, large infantry formations or a squadron of Thunderbolt lookalikes mowing the CAVs with their rotary assault cannons...

If people want to play with big aircraft, let them, just like you let folks play pure CAV formations. If folks think that the Tsuiseki is to large on their table, they won't play it, they'll deploy smaller aircraft, they have the choice. But the folks that want to play a large aircraft in a game of CAV Wouldn't have that option because the powers that be decided that we wouldn't like big scary aircraft in our CAV games. Now, I don't want to be hostile, but that reeks of a large amount of arrogance about what we do and don't want from a game, especially when the company wants folks to give (lots of) money up front.

[Titus]

Dudes... Its Sci-fi. The planes are propably piloted by a hardwired severed head floating in goo!