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EvilJames

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I've been running a Pathfinder game for a while now and I have a rather complex plot situation coming up and I'd like some advice on how best to set it up so that the players are most likely to encounter all the pieces of this puzzle.

 

 

 

The Hooger clan was always a particularly unpleasant and dangerous clan of ogres, but when their patriarch, Pappy Hooger, fell to ghoul fever they became much worse. Pappy reasoned that the Hoogers could be the most powerful clan of ogres ever if they commanded the powers of the undeath. So his Eldest daughter took control of the clan and the eldest of her kin became ghouls. Eventually such a powerful and ambitious clan gained the noticed of an ogre mage named Krolin-Kal. Bruhiga knew that Krolin-Kal would produce powerful offspring for the clan and offered to share the clans leadership with him. This was a mistake however, as Kroiln-Kal did not approve of Pappy and Bruhiga's plan to turn most of the clan into ghouls, and he magically bound Pappy to a chair and sealed the ogre ghouls in the cellar of the Hooger House. Even though Bruhiga was powerful witch in her own right, she could not overcome Krolin-Kal and his magic.

Until one day while out, Krolin-Kal found himself surprised by a sudden attack from another powerful creature. Hrath-gor, a half dragon ogre and wielder of Mythical powers. Caught by surprise he had little chance and was quickly dispatched. Overjoyed, Bruhiga offered Hrath-gor riches and power beyond imagining if he would help her free Pappy and her ghoulish sons and carry on as her new mate. To this Hrath-gor has agreed.

To this end Bruhiga has enlisted her fellow witches from her coven. The Hag sisters, Aunty Grinn and Aunty Muriel, as well as Muriel’s Changeling daughter, Marybeth, and the Coven's leader, the powerful annis hag, Granny Thorne. All of which approve and are excited about the destructuin the Hooger's plan will cause.

In addition, the Hoogers have allies in the nearby human town. Mayor Brandt of the nearby town of Stoneplow hides evidence of the Hooger's raids, making people believe that simple raiders are responsible for attacks on caravans and suppressing talk of horrors in the woods, in exchange for pick of the loot. Mayor Brandt is a powerful fighter and is unaware of the Hooger's plans. He thinks he has little to fear from them as he is a match for an individual ogre.

 

Also unbeknownst to the mayor, a contingent of soldiers were headed north to deal with what they think are a small but bold band of bandits, but were delayed by the destruction Hrath-gor caused in the heroes home town. Now the heroes are headed to Stoneplow to aid the citizens there until the soldiers arrive. They have also tracked Hrath-gor in this direction and seek to destroy the monster once and for all.

 

 

 

Several of the players are ones I've never really DM'd for and one is entirely new to tabletop roleplaying in general. So I have trouble predicting what they might do and where they might go and in what order. (My old group I had this down pretty good)

 

So far I'm going to have them arrive in town where they will likely notice that everyone isn't exactly friendly. they will probaly head to the inn where they will encounter the Mayor (he owns the only inn in town and it is staffed and frequently patroned by many of his cronies) They will also encounter Mary Beth in town as she sells her Aunty's meat pies to travelers there.

Later they will be approacehed by a quiet woman who askes them to find her missing child. She also tells them that many people are missing but most townfolk won't talk about it. If pressed, she says the Mayor forbids talk about dissappearance to keep from scaring traders. (If the Mayor is asked about this he scowls and says he is looking into these things but doesn't want the town in an uproar, "It's easy to get lost in the woods here the guard will find them so there is no need to worry".

When the Heroes leave town they encounter a grizzly scene of a destroyed caravan and Mary Beth weeping over the carnage. When they approach she begs them to help her get to her Aunty's house in the woods. She then leads them to Aunty Muriel's house. Eventually Mary Beth will leave and the party will be attacked by Muriel who is a green hag. I'm not Really sure where to go from there.

Any advice on that or advice on what I have so far?

 

Also I'm sure people can guess what Aunty Muriel's meat pies are made from and Granny Thorne will be the one who has the quiet woman's child. I expect hunting down and destroying Granny Thorn to be the end of this particular chapter. I'm very much going for a Texas Chainsaw massacre feel with this particular adventure although I'm not sure if any of the Hooger's will be a Leatherface analogue.

 

On an entirely related note, can anyone recomend a good min to represent an annis hag?

Edited by EvilJames

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Okay... there's a lot here. I'm going to start with some general advice I'm sure you've probably heard before.

 

That is, that players tend to resent being led by the nose. In this case, you have new players both to your style and to gaming in general and don't know how they will react. So you have to balance clues, plot, and opportunity for both against the sense of free will that players cherish so much. I only say this because you have a lot of information and backstory here, and some of the events and people seem to be tied to being in the right place at the right time. Which can get tricky.

 

So my first advice is to make the Mayor, the quiet woman and Mary Beth mobile. That is to say that you don't have to tie them down to a single location where the PCs have to be in order to meet them. Maybe Mary Beth has other errands. Maybe not the whole party has to meet her. Maybe the Mayor owns a lot of establishments. Round out those characters well, list their likely locations and activities, and then allow the PCs to meet them when the time is right.

 

Likewise, certain events don't have to be tied to specific locations. You said the grizzly scene is out of town somewhere. That's good. Keep its location open so the players feel like they are coming upon it naturally. This sort of flexibility will help mitigate the feeling that all these events are planned in great detail, which can smother some players.

 

There's a lot of backstory. Maybe some of it is unnecessary. Krolin-Kal seems a bit redundant. It looks like his only true function is to seal Pappy to a chair and seal the brothers in a cellar. Though the image of Pappy in the chair is interesting, I think you can accomplish that by other, simpler means. You don't specify what involvement the hags have in all of this, whether it be freeing the ghoulish captives or helping to acquire all the riches needed to secure Hrath-gor's alliance.

 

If it were me, I would eliminate Krolin-Kal, make the hags the ones who bound the ghouls in the cellar, and give the PCs the opportunity to naturally get in the middle of a feud between the two factions (ogres and hags). Hrath-Gor can still be there to try to unseal Pappy, but for his own self interest in ruling the whole clan and crushing the hags. It's much more simple and the dynamic allows the party to get involved without forcing a bunch of backstory on them and making one faction seem too overwhelming. Plus, it's easier for GM and players alike to keep track of all the names and abilities and types if they are better compartmentalized. Splitting them into warring factions does this.

 

Feuds are about escalation, which allows events to unfold naturally without you having to do a lot of plotting beforehand.

 

The meat pies are nice, but they are window dressing. Keep them, but don't force them. The bad guy mayor is cool, too. Maybe he can play the two sides against each other by allying with both. Having him end up too deep in his own treachery to escape without help (or at all) would make for some good storytelling.

 

That's my input, for what it's worth. Over many, many years of writing and GMing, I've learned that less is more, writing is often more about carving away than it is adding on, and you always have to be ready to "kill your darlings" (give up some of the little extras and favorite characters who are there to satisfy yourself for the sake of satisfying your audience).

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Thanks. I'm trying very hard on not rail roading here as I don't like it either. I just got so used to knowing how the players will react that now that I have different players, i'm feeling a little overwhelmed on making an interesting game.

 

You are right that Krolin-kal serves just put Pappy in the chair. Their is some undecided stuff for later on since this will be the second oni the players have encountered and I plan on using them more later on as major villains, but I could still probably eliminate him. The players were unlikely to ever even know his name as they would only find his corpse if they really explored the Hooger's house. Making the hags and ogres enemies is an interseting idea but I'm not sure if it would work. Bruhiga is a witch and part of the coven with the hags. That's pretty much their involvment. I could increase that somehow  I suppose.

But now that you mention it Granny Thorne could still have done it as a punishement to Bruhiga for what ever slight against her coven sisters. I really wanted to emphasize how the ogres value family and that they consider the hags family. Securing the aid of Hrath-gor could be a way of appeasing granny or at least convince her to let Pappy and his boys out.

Hrath-gor's involvment is entirely out of self interest, he loves destruction and violence for it's own sake. Gold and power also appeal to him. His involvment is as that of an outsider but he is also the main reason the party is in the area.

 

I do plan on having everything in town be pretty mobile and organic I just right it out like that so I remember what I was planning on happening (Far to many times I would forget important things if I didn't write them down some where, even with my old group)

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I agree with Bruunwald on all or almost all points. Beyond trimming down the plot, keep in mind that most campaigns, adventures, encounters, whatever, all have a lot of background that the PCs never see. So even when you trim things down and get the PCs to run around doing their thing (whatever their thing happens to be), don't feel bad if they don't get to everything. Expect that they'll miss some bits! (Or a lot of bits.) Sometimes it's something you'll want to tell them when they've wrapped up the adventure, so you can all sit there and talk about it and what was supposed to happen and the players can say "Oh, THAT'S why that was there!" Sometimes, you can drag some skeletons out of the woodwork and get them later with something they overlooked before. And at least for me, every now and then I look at something the PCs never got to and go, "Phew. That thing I wrote was kind of crap and they had a really good time because they never saw it. Let us never speak of it again!"

 

With respect to your backstory, my advice is to take one step back and think about what your players are likely to remember two weeks after the session: what would they tell you the story was if you asked them? Try to focus on that germ of a story, and remove things until you can tell that story, and tell it well. I don't know it the way you do, but it sounds to me like that story might be "Evil ogre witch tried to free her ghoulish children."

 

To me, the annis hag and the witches' coven seem almost incidental to the overall plot. Thorne isn't the prime mover or the BBEG (big bad evil guy/gal), driving the plot through to the end, it sounds like--that distinction might go to either Bruhiga or Hrath-Gor. Pappy could also be the BBEG in the "unleashed evil" role. Without changing too much, I would probably make one of them be the ultimate opponent for the adventure, and I'm not sure where that leaves the hag and witches' coven, exactly. You still would need some rationale for the ogre ghouls to have been locked away, so I don't know that that part of the backstory is unnecessary, but it's nothing I'd beat your players over the head with. It's also hard to communicate enemies' history plausibly and effectively when they can't write--ogres aren't exactly the best historians.

 

Of course, replacing the typical "many years ago, a party of adventurers sealed away a tomb of ghouls..." with the annis hatching some convoluted plot to extort her ogre sister in crime would still work fine.

 

One structural note on how I understand PC motivation... I try to break down adventures into "encounters" and "bridges." Encounters are, of course, the fights and social events and natural hazards and other sorts of interesting puzzles and challenges that a GM puts together for a party of adventurers to run into and hopefully surmount. A bridge is the transition between encounters--sometimes the motivation, sometimes the NPC dialogue, and sometimes it's the portable hole the party failed to identify and stored in their bag of holding by accident. Bridges don't have to be static, but certainly can be. Encounters are fun to write, while bridges are usually harder. Bridges are also less engaging, so it's easier to ruin a player's sense of disbelief with a bad bridge.

 

And of course, if you're writing your own campaign, you're already doing this! It's just how I break things down to understand the roles that need to be played in order to get people to where you want them to be. I think it's a useful perspective to take if your players have been difficult to understand, because it isolates the problem and makes you focus on addressing it.

 

Regarding documentation, setting, and sandbox encounters--with larger regions, I tend to break things out by area--or by building, when in town--and write out what happens when they enter a particular building. So your building list might be an inn, a tavern, two shops, and the town hall, and you'd write out NPC interactions, quests, whatever--however you mentally model this stuff--for each of them. And then as a supplement, add in a clock--if the PCs haven't made it to the grocer after two days, the grocer's wife approaches them and asks if they can help her find her daughter, for example.

 

An example of how I might structure a linear story within a sandbox:

 

Key plot:

  1. After the party has heard about the missing girl, the next time they leave town they find a wrecked wagon. BRIDGE: woman at the wagon asks them to take her to her auntie's house. She tells them where it is, not expecting them to refuse. If they do refuse, she palms a small item and runs away. The coven then uses the stolen item to curse the previous owner in some minor but aggravating way until the party addresses the witches.
  2. Once the party returns to town after fighting the coven, the next morning the mayor's thugs attack in an attempt to salvage what's left of his agreement with the coven. BRIDGE: The mayor's office has documents implicating him; if the PCs search it after his death, they find them. If they don't search it, then the next day, the sheriff finds them and hands over some of the paperwork and tells them that the town has a problem and "would you please save us we'll give you stuff if you do. It looks like he was supposed to get paid tomorrow night."
  3. Party goes to the location and fights the ogress. BRIDGE: ogress dies mentioning the horrible plot to let loose her ghoulified offspring. If the party does not show, ogress suspects something has gone wrong, discovers the heroes' work, and attacks town the next evening. If the party has left town, a messenger runs to them for help after the attack has damaged much of the town and ceased for the evening. If the party continues to leave, well... maybe this adventure isn't for them.

Before the encounter with the witches' coven:

  • Everyone in town is unfriendly. Prices are 125% or more above normal market prices.
  • Diplomacy DCs to influence locals are 5 higher than normal.

After the encounter with the witches' coven, before the Mayor attack:

  • Prices are 75% normal. Diplomacy DCs are 5 lower than normal. Everyone is friendly.
  • In tavern/inn, pretty guy/girl asks character of antisocial player to dance.
  • Old woman asks if party saw her son who has gone missing. (Side-quest assignment?)

After the mayor's attack:

  • Prices, friendlyness, everything is normal. People like the PCs, but are worried the town is in danger. Too much change, and the betrayal has rattled everyone.

etc. For a larger sandbox, add more time between key plot, add additional side-quests (these are also good for filling players in on backstory), etc.

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With respect to your backstory, my advice is to take one step back and think about what your players are likely to remember two weeks after the session: what would they tell you the story was if you asked them? Try to focus on that germ of a story, and remove things until you can tell that story, and tell it well. I don't know it the way you do, but it sounds to me like that story might be "Evil ogre witch tried to free her ghoulish children."

 

What Terminalmancer is saying here is a good exercise for any writer.

 

Imagine you are writing to sell a screenplay to a studio head and you need a concise synopsis to get him fired up. Now, whenever you have an idea for an adventure, open a Word doc or grab a pen and see if you can condense the most important ideas in the plot down to a single, powerful sentence, for that studio head's benefit. Or, just think of a movie you like, and see if you can condense it this way. For instance:

 

A philosophical yet hapless truck driver becomes embroiled in a war between ancient Chinese sorcerers, played out against the backdrop of modern San Francisco.

(Big Trouble in Little China)

 

I have a friend I collaborate with sometimes; we write comedic stories and sometimes whole experimental screenplays. This is a game we play, and it really, really helps a writer learn to be brief and concise and clear. These lessons will carry over into all of your writing, and eventually you will begin to work this way out of habit.

Edited by Bruunwald
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Hmm.. you are right. Thorne isn't really a BBEG and I hadn't thought of that. The hags really became involved because i wanted to diversify the Hooger "family" to keep it interesting. Hags made reasonable ally for the ogres and Granny seemed a natural leader for the coven. I was planning on her being mythic but since she's not a good final boss, I'll let Hrath-gor be the mythic boss here.

I'm prepared for them not to find everything I'm just needing them to find the important things. Mostly finding the ogres and their plans and the hags and the Mayor's involvment. I actually have two ways for that to come to light depending on what happens, but will likely need to have a few more ideas.

 

edit: I also don't need them to find out all the back story. I just like to have it there for when unexpected things happen.

 

 

 

 

With respect to your backstory, my advice is to take one step back and think about what your players are likely to remember two weeks after the session: what would they tell you the story was if you asked them? Try to focus on that germ of a story, and remove things until you can tell that story, and tell it well. I don't know it the way you do, but it sounds to me like that story might be "Evil ogre witch tried to free her ghoulish children."

 

What Terminalmancer is saying here is a good exercise for any writer.

 

Imagine you are writing to sell a screenplay to a studio head and you need a concise synopsis to get him fired up. Now, whenever you have an idea for an adventure, open a Word doc or grab a pen and see if you can condense the most important ideas in the plot down to a single, powerful sentence, for that studio head's benefit. Or, just think of a movie you like, and see if you can condense it this way. For instance:

 

A philosophical yet hapless truck driver becomes embroiled in a war between ancient Chinese sorcerers, played out against the backdrop of modern San Francisco.

(Big Trouble in Little China)

 

I have a friend I collaborate with sometimes; we write comedic stories and sometimes whole experimental screenplays. This is a game we play, and it really, really helps a writer learn to be brief and concise and clear. These lessons will carry over into all of your writing, and eventually you will begin to work this way out of habit.

 

That was something I was trying to do when I was trying to write it all out last night. distill it down into an "elevator pitch" I was having trouble condensing down for some reason.

 

This has all been immensly helpful as I don't have a sounding board for ideas at home since my wife is playing in this game.

Edited by EvilJames
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I tend to structure adventures a bit differently than it seems some others here do (though I really like their advice for their style).

 

Rather than trying to bring the PCs to a specific place or activity, I try to determine three broad categories of things:

 

1. What the players will (or may, if it isn't crucial) notice in various places. In your case, that would be how the people in the streets react when they first get to town, what people in the inn do if they go there, what the mayor says if they talk to him and how he says it, and so on.

 

2. What will happen if the PCs don't do anything or at least don't start solving the problems.

 

3. What the reactions of the NPCs to likely PC actions are. (With luck, by deciding #2 and this one, you'll be able to react to unlikely actions plausibly in the moment.)

 

Note that #2 & #3 might include designing encounters or at least combat stats for significant NPCs.

 

Then I just let it run. (I might move the locations of designed encounters if the PCs do what I expect but in the wrong direction, but only if I think that would be more interesting or appropriate than the alternative.)

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I tend to structure adventures a bit differently than it seems some others here do (though I really like their advice for their style).

 

Rather than trying to bring the PCs to a specific place or activity, I try to determine three broad categories of things:

[...]

Then I just let it run. (I might move the locations of designed encounters if the PCs do what I expect but in the wrong direction, but only if I think that would be more interesting or appropriate than the alternative.)

Some very good advice. I'm sure you still have interesting settings, but the way you've described your methods, you make me want to try strongly decoupling the action from the geography, to see how that might work out and how that changes the narrative.

 

To MissMelons: I bet we've all screwed up. The first step in getting good at something is making mistakes, though, so you can learn from them!

 

The first big campaign I wrote and ran was an almost complete sandbox-style game. (I love playing in sandboxes!) Unfortunately, I ran it for players that didn't like open-world stuff. Instead, they were much more comfortable with a linear campaign. Oops! They were nice (or masochistic) enough not to tell me for a good long while, but eventually I figured it out and started adjusting things.

 

Nowadays, the first time I meet a new player, I ask them what they like most about playing tabletop games. I've gotten some really surprising responses.

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I tend to structure adventures a bit differently than it seems some others here do (though I really like their advice for their style).

 

Rather than trying to bring the PCs to a specific place or activity, I try to determine three broad categories of things:

 

1. What the players will (or may, if it isn't crucial) notice in various places. In your case, that would be how the people in the streets react when they first get to town, what people in the inn do if they go there, what the mayor says if they talk to him and how he says it, and so on.

 

2. What will happen if the PCs don't do anything or at least don't start solving the problems.

 

3. What the reactions of the NPCs to likely PC actions are. (With luck, by deciding #2 and this one, you'll be able to react to unlikely actions plausibly in the moment.)

 

Note that #2 & #3 might include designing encounters or at least combat stats for significant NPCs.

 

Then I just let it run. (I might move the locations of designed encounters if the PCs do what I expect but in the wrong direction, but only if I think that would be more interesting or appropriate than the alternative.)

 

This is how I do it. Players don't know what's going on behind the scenes and what encounters are lined up for them. I react to them and when the story calls for them to see an encounter (friendly or unfriendly), I'll simply plug it in. 

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My players lost their biscuits when they met a beautiful servant girl in an abandoned mansion. They failed their rolls so horribly and couldn't agree on what to do with her. One guy didn't care, one guy casted zone of truth, our female paladin immediately dragged the girl out of the zone of truth and outside because she thought she was a vampire. The players ended up botching their rolls and turning on the paladin for bullying the poor girl.

 

She was a succubus.

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My players lost their biscuits when they met a beautiful servant girl in an abandoned mansion. They failed their rolls so horribly and couldn't agree on what to do with her. One guy didn't care, one guy casted zone of truth, our female paladin immediately dragged the girl out of the zone of truth and outside because she thought she was a vampire. The players ended up botching their rolls and turning on the paladin for bullying the poor girl.

 

She was a succubus.

What were you hoping would happen? I know some GMs who would consider that a successful encounter. Well, okay--probably most GMs would.

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My players lost their biscuits when they met a beautiful servant girl in an abandoned mansion. They failed their rolls so horribly and couldn't agree on what to do with her. One guy didn't care, one guy casted zone of truth, our female paladin immediately dragged the girl out of the zone of truth and outside because she thought she was a vampire. The players ended up botching their rolls and turning on the paladin for bullying the poor girl.

 

She was a succubus.

What were you hoping would happen? I know some GMs who would consider that a successful encounter. Well, okay--probably most GMs would.

 

 

I think it's an awesome encounter. Those kinds of crazy ones are the most memorable for the GM and the Players!

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I set up numerous things like that that will spark or channel certain things. Our group tended to dive in, guns blazing and never had an opportunity to role play or stealth or make many saves. Though, had they actually fought her then it would have made their later fight a bit easier. Its always troublese to fight six guys and a succubus and your hard hitters are charmed.

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I set up numerous things like that that will spark or channel certain things. Our group tended to dive in, guns blazing and never had an opportunity to role play or stealth or make many saves. Though, had they actually fought her then it would have made their later fight a bit easier. Its always troublese to fight six guys and a succubus and your hard hitters are charmed.

I think at that point, a smart party runs away and leaves the beef behind, and a suicidal party (or one that isn't too attached to their characters) stays and gets a story you can all share for a while. Not being there, we can't say for sure it all went great, but it's the kind of thing that happens now and then.

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