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TheAuldGrump

Kings of War

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I can’t believe 3rd edition is coming out in just a few months.

I’m still trying to work my way through the 2nd edition rules.

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56 minutes ago, Darsc Zacal said:

I can’t believe 3rd edition is coming out in just a few months.

I’m still trying to work my way through the 2nd edition rules.

I missed it, was this announced? I had only heard rumors. I thought they were still deciding between 3rd and CoK 2020.

 

ETA: Found it, great!

Edited by pinkymadigan
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2 hours ago, Darsc Zacal said:

I can’t believe 3rd edition is coming out in just a few months.

I’m still trying to work my way through the 2nd edition rules.

I recommend playing the game - it is very easy to learn in play, maybe a little less so without giving it a try.

 

Good gravy, Mantic change editions fast... but each edition, so far, has been an improvement and expansion, not change for change's sake, so.... Yeah, I'll be onboard for this. (I suspect that more base sizes for monsters are one of the changes - already been some grumbling about the sizes, so it is something that needs changing.)

 

The Auld Grump

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There's a new one?

 

Already?!!!1! :grr:

 

It hasn't been that long! We haven't even finished painting the LAST one! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

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Well, we've had two annual updates, several FAQs, each a bit more cumbersome than the last, plus the release of Uncharted Empires and Edge of the Abyss prior to them. I was thinking it would be good even if not a new edition for the next CoK to be a full new ruleset with FAQ and corrections integrated at the very least. It was bit annoying having to remember which items had changed CoK to CoK. I'm hoping 3rd ed will be more like that than a full new ruleset, honestly. There are a few things they can clean up and streamline but it doesn't need much in the way of new rules.

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1 minute ago, lowlylowlycook said:

I have a slight worry that KoW 3.0 might be somewhat more unfriendly to non-Mantic armies than it has been up to this point.  

 

I have heard that rumor, especially as Mantic improves, and expands, its miniatures line, but nothing in the official announcement seems to point at that. Have they said anything to that effect?

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1 hour ago, klarg1 said:

 

I have heard that rumor, especially as Mantic improves, and expands, its miniatures line, but nothing in the official announcement seems to point at that. Have they said anything to that effect?

There will always be more points available at Mantic sponsored events for mostly Mantic armies. That's the way it's been and always will be. It encourages sales, and doesn't exclude people who want to play with alternate miniatures. It's a cornerstone of their model, and I can't see them changing it for a number of reasons: 

1- They would be eliminating a number of players from a niche game in a niche hobby (because let's face it, if you're not GW and you're in wargaming; you're niche)

2- Beautiful armies attract players, regardless of manufacturer. More players = more potential sales.

3- Mantic can't control what happens outside their events, so why bother trying? It's silly, and quite frankly insulting to the players telling them they have to use specific models in their home games or games at the club, or even at non-sponsored events. Even back in early WHFB everyone I knew was using proxies. Not embracing it is pointless.

Edited by pinkymadigan
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23 hours ago, pinkymadigan said:

There will always be more points available at Mantic sponsored events for mostly Mantic armies. That's the way it's been and always will be. It encourages sales, and doesn't exclude people who want to play with alternate miniatures. It's a cornerstone of their model, and I can't see them changing it for a number of reasons: 

1- They would be eliminating a number of players from a niche game in a niche hobby (because let's face it, if you're not GW and you're in wargaming; you're niche)

2- Beautiful armies attract players, regardless of manufacturer. More players = more potential sales.

3- Mantic can't control what happens outside their events, so why bother trying? It's silly, and quite frankly insulting to the players telling them they have to use specific models in their home games or games at the club, or even at non-sponsored events. Even back in early WHFB everyone I knew was using proxies. Not embracing it is pointless.

And given that there are armies that Mantic currently has no plans to make minis for.... (Kingdoms of Men being well covered by, well, pretty much everyone else. ::P: )

 

Mantic works hard at balance, unlike a certain Other CompanyTM - and tweaks things on a regular basis. (As opposed to The New Army Is Always Better! technique of that Other CompanyTM.

 

I suspect some of the CoK rules will become part of the main rules, and the minis introduced for Vanguard will become fixtures in KoW armies. (Megan is quite happy with the Winggit, for example.)

 

Yeah, the generations for the game are a wee bit closer together than I might prefer, but the changes have been worthwhile.

 

I hope that they continue with having two versions of the rulebook - the hardcover with all the rules, army lists, and the fluff - and the perfect bound book with just the rules and the army lists. ::P: (I use my hardcover to introduce people to the game - but in actual play we use the paperbound version.)

 

The Auld Grump

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23 hours ago, pinkymadigan said:

There will always be more points available at Mantic sponsored events for mostly Mantic armies. That's the way it's been and always will be. It encourages sales, and doesn't exclude people who want to play with alternate miniatures. It's a cornerstone of their model, and I can't see them changing it for a number of reasons: 

1- They would be eliminating a number of players from a niche game in a niche hobby (because let's face it, if you're not GW and you're in wargaming; you're niche)

2- Beautiful armies attract players, regardless of manufacturer. More players = more potential sales.

3- Mantic can't control what happens outside their events, so why bother trying? It's silly, and quite frankly insulting to the players telling them they have to use specific models in their home games or games at the club, or even at non-sponsored events. Even back in early WHFB everyone I knew was using proxies. Not embracing it is pointless.

 I'm thinking more in terms of sidelining  the Uncharted Empires armies than them trying to stop people from using their GW dwarves.  

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They need to fix the dwarven infantry points costs. They're ever so slightly overpriced for what they can do. The fix to Headstrong almost worked but wasn't quite enough. In all honesty 'though I don't think there's much they need to change for a 3rd edition game. Just two or three paragraphs of errata and they're practically done. I'm not sure what they need to fix (and the rules are far from perfect) but some fixes would definitely improve things.

 

Another issue is Crushing Strength against Defence. Defence cannot rise higher than 6. Crushing Strength is unlimited and can stack up to about 3 or 4 in some easily contrived circumstances. It's impossible to be tough in Kings of War. Everything dies quickly. The casualty removal rate is a little too high for my liking as you never really have enough time to react or turn things around if events go against you.

 

Something else they need to fix is the game being skewed in favour of highly untraditional armies. Many claim the only "effective" dwarven army is all cavalry and earth elementals with no infantry or artillery at all. That's pretty much one of the most un-dwarven dwarvish armies you'll ever see. The same applies to other armies where the niche/support stuff becomes the new core as the game heavily favours the stuff that mantic produces but nobody else makes.

 

Iron resolve could also do with a fix. Most of the units with Iron Resolve are defence 3 meaning they take so much damage that Iron resolve basically doesn't matter.

 

Ideally they'd also reduce the buckets of dice effect (rolling 90 dice for a rear charge by angry barbarian bear riders is kind of ridiculous).

Edited by Balgin Stondraeg

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Oof. 3rd edition? I wonder what armies won't get rules at the start. They still haven't rereleased the dark elves for 2nd edition, and Vanguard has a lot of individual units that don't have any rules yet. I can't imagine that 3rd edition is going to come out of the gate with full lists for all 20+ armies...

Edited by Unruly

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14 hours ago, lowlylowlycook said:

 I'm thinking more in terms of sidelining  the Uncharted Empires armies than them trying to stop people from using their GW dwarves.  

At least one already has Mantic minis.

 

And I know they have plans to release for Vanguard at least.

 

I don't think they are going away.

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On 7/3/2019 at 11:41 AM, lowlylowlycook said:

 I'm thinking more in terms of sidelining  the Uncharted Empires armies than them trying to stop people from using their GW dwarves.  

Some armies will be in a secondary release. That has been confirmed. I forget the numbers but IIRC the main book was going to have more than before, and the secondary book was going to have 7 (which I think is the same or really close, maybe there were 9 before?). I'll have to see if I can find the numbers.

 

ETA:
Looks like 14 and 12. Also, the 3rd ed book will be 380(!) pages. I assume a slim version for rules only will be available as well, they usually do that. So that's (+1 army to the base book, and +3 to the UE, so a net gain of 4 armies).

source:
https://manticblog.com/2019/07/01/kings-of-war-third-edition-coming-october-2019/

 

Edited by pinkymadigan
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Yeah, over on Dakka Dakka, Matt Gilbert was quite specific that no armies were going away

 

The second book is being aimed at only two months after the main book releases.

 

The main book is 380 pages?!!1!

 

The Auld Grump - remember when the entirety of the rules, not including army lists, could be printed on a single large page?...

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