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A few things that concern me


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Hello all,

 

I would like to chat a little about a couple of things about CAV. I am sure one has been talked about but I would like to have some clarification.

 

Topic #1

When a unit moves partial, gets damaged, it uses the current damage track for movement.

 

I don't like this rule because I am starting to believe that you are penalized for not shooting until you complete your movement. I would have much rather seen an average of the beginning and ending damage tracks used instead (The Ideal albeit time consuming way to do this is calculate the percentage of movement used before firing and calculate movement afterward by using the percentage scheme) since I honestly believe that would be a better approximation of what actually happened (and it shouldn't take more time).

I would like to know why this rule has been instituted because this has become a point of contention among newer CAV players (that way I can really explain why this helps the game mechanic).

 

 

Topic #2

The guns on the Dictator 2

 

I have lost players due to the apparent 'cheesiness' of it. :down:

When CAV newbies find this and/or get this used on them, they feel frustrated and angry because only one model in the game has such an 'Overpowering' ability as compared to everyone else. Truthfully, you basically get 2 extra points done to the enemy in exchange for 1 of your own but it appears the increased possibility of a critical has been left out of the equation (we wont get into the increased range phenomenon). Personally, I think the overdrive capacitors should be removed from the Dictator II and should be a module instead (such as ECCM and CL pod is now) that can be installed on any gauss weapon. That way, it is a game mechanic and not stuck to one gun and/or model. Well heck, you could even make up a pulse modulator to be used on Laser type weapons that increases soft damage capability in exchange for using emergency power. I think that would be a great dynamic to add to CAV (i.e. modules that effect weapon capability) but I am no game designer so I wouldn't really know.

Sorry for being off-topic. I guess my real question is, what do you tell a newbie player when they are angry at those guns? I know the guns aren't really a problem for vet players, but for a CAV newbie its a different story. Sorry if this has been asked before.

BTW does it seem strange for a 'running' dictator 2 to run and be on overcharge at the same time? Just curious. :wacko:

 

 

Thanks

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Hello all,

 

  Topic #1

    When a unit moves partial, gets damaged, it uses the current damage track for movement.

 

  I would like to know why this rule has been instituted because this has become a point of contention among newer CAV players (that way I can really explain why this helps the game mechanic).

This one has never been a problem here. We thought about taking the average, but that takes too long for us. I just figure the unit was staggered by the damage, slowing it a bit extra that round.

 

Topic #2

    The guns on the Dictator 2

 

  I have lost players due to the apparent 'cheesiness' of it. :down:

When CAV newbies find this and/or get this used on them, they feel frustrated and angry because only one model in the game has such an 'Overpowering' ability as compared to everyone else.  Truthfully, you basically get 2 extra points done to the enemy in exchange for 1 of your own but it appears the increased possibility of a critical has been left out of the equation (we wont get into the increased range phenomenon). Personally, I think the overdrive capacitors should be removed from the Dictator II and should be a module instead (such as ECCM and CL pod is now) that can be installed on any gauss weapon. That way, it is a game mechanic and not stuck to one gun and/or model.

Actually, it's doing an extra half point (on average) to the enemy in return for a full point to itself. A +2 on the damage table isn't even a full point -- it's not doing an extra two points. The Dictator II (and its little cousing, the BL Dictator) serve me mainly as intimidation tools. If the ability to overdrive was a pod, who wouldn't mount it on a Rhino first thing? (Now that might get a little cheesy!)

 

Quick poll -- how many of you always improve the Repair on your Dictator II's and BL's?

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#1 - uh, no thanks. That's all I need to do is spend my time calculating where exactly my damage track should be, it takes away from my beer drinking time. Not all rules are going to be perfect, better to get away from nitpicky stuff and just make it straight forward and simple. In this way everyone is penalized the same way so no one has an advantage over another because it's not an army related thing but a rules related thing. If you want to though, include it as a house rule for your own personal entertainment.

 

#2 - Sure it's cheesy but life ain't fare and neither is war. I wouldn't worry too much about it though, again, anyone can get one, and if it's pushing away players, either their just too soft or you need to take it out of your intro/demo games until they get used to the system. I personally ahve never found the Dictator II overwhelming, just a handful. It seems a properly placed Duelist does more damage in my case. My bet is that at some point you will atleast see that sort of ability on multiple units and who knows, it may at some point become an add on for anyone!

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Topic #1

When a unit moves partial, gets damaged, it uses the current damage track for movement.

 

If I'm running along and I get shot in the leg... I'm going down like a sack of potatoes.

 

I don't think this rule is problematic. Stuff gets damaged in combat and if that damage prevents you from getting to cover, then, sorry... SOL.

 

Topic #2

The guns on the Dictator 2

...

Sorry for being off-topic. I guess my real question is, what do you tell a newbie player when they are angry at those guns?

 

You did explain to them how much that beast costs to field, right? 455 points is a lot of tabletop space that this guy is taking up.

Heck, for that many points, I can field 2 Whisper Missiles and still have some points left over.

 

And, while they may be absolute studs on the table, they still suk against soft targets... So, Tsuisekis will own them.

 

I also want to point out the weakness of the '70 Dictator, and other Dictators for that matter. Once they start taking damage, it becomes much easier to hit them, as their ECM degrades immediately.

Soften them up with IF attacks from your fire support elements, then finish them with Mantis's, Starhawks and Gladiators (you do know that a Gladiator with TL is virtually the same as an Overdriven '70 without TL, but without the point of damage).

 

Cheers!

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Ok,

 

 

For one thing, I do not use them in demo games of course. One of the new players latched onto the D2 and its been mass proliferating ever since.

 

I guess I am not sure why the movement penalty is really needed after all. I guess I just want to make sure what it is trying to prevent.

 

As far as the Dictator Guns:

Let me reiterate that this is a new player issue. Vets to the game know how to

overcome the problem.

Well lets see how the probabilities actually calculate:

assumption=using updated crit chart

 

1.) Gun vs +4 armor without TL

 

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

-6 -4 0 1 0

-5 -3 0 2 0

-4 -2 0 3 0

-3 -1 0 4 0

-2 0 0 5 0

-1 1 0 6 0

0 2 0 7 0

1 3 0 8 0

2 4 1 9 9

3 5 1 10 10

4 6 0 9 0

5 7 0 8 0

6 8 1 7 7

7 9 1 6 6

8 10 0 5 0

9 11 1 4 4

10 12 1 3 3

11 13 1 2 2

12 14 3.5 1 3.5

44.5

average benefit per gun= .445 damage

 

2) gun vs armor +3 without tl

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

-5 -3 0 1 0

-4 -2 0 2 0

-3 -1 0 3 0

-2 0 0 4 0

-1 1 0 5 0

0 2 0 6 0

1 3 0 7 0

2 4 1 8 8

3 5 1 9 9

4 6 0 10 0

5 7 0 9 0

6 8 1 8 8

7 9 1 7 7

8 10 0 6 0

9 11 1 5 5

10 12 1 4 4

11 13 1 3 3

12 14 3.5 2 7

13 15 3.5 1 3.5

51

average benefit= .51 damage per gun

 

 

3.) gun vs +2 armor without TL

 

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

 

-4 -2 0 1 0

-3 -1 0 2 0

-2 0 0 3 0

-1 1 0 4 0

0 2 0 5 0

1 3 0 6 0

2 4 1 7 7

3 5 1 8 8

4 6 0 9 0

5 7 0 10 0

6 8 1 9 9

7 9 1 8 8

8 10 0 7 0

9 11 1 6 6

10 12 1 5 5

11 13 1 4 4

12 14 3.5 3 10.5

13 15 3.5 2 7

14 16 0 1 57.5

average benefit= .57 damage per gun

 

So looking at the above data. Joel is right as far as .5 points per gun for a total of 1 extra point of damage per 1 point of own damage.

 

Now lets see with target lock

1.) gun vs +4 armor w/TL of +3

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

-3 -1 0 1 0

-2 0 0 2 0

-1 1 0 3 0

0 2 0 4 0

1 3 0 5 0

2 4 1 6 6

3 5 1 7 7

4 6 0 8 0

5 7 0 9 0

6 8 1 10 10

7 9 1 9 9

8 10 0 8 0

9 11 1 7 7

10 12 1 6 6

11 13 1 5 5

12 14 3.5 4 14

13 15 3.5 3 10.5

14 16 0 2 0

15 17 0 1 0

74.5

average damage per gun=.745

 

2) gun vs +3armor w/TL

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

-2 0 0 1 0

-1 1 0 2 0

0 2 0 3 0

1 3 0 4 0

2 4 1 5 5

3 5 1 6 6

4 6 0 7 0

5 7 0 8 0

6 8 1 9 9

7 9 1 10 10

8 10 0 9 0

9 11 1 8 8

10 12 1 7 7

11 13 1 6 6

12 14 3.5 5 17.5

13 15 3.5 4 14

14 16 0 3 0

15 17 0 2 0

16 18 0 1 0

82.5

average benefit .825 damage per gun

 

3) gun vs +2 armor w/TL

 

 

unmod mod damage delta frequency Adjusted value

-1 1 0 1 0

0 2 0 2 0

1 3 0 3 0

2 4 1 4 4

3 5 1 5 5

4 6 0 6 0

5 7 0 7 0

6 8 1 8 8

7 9 1 9 9

8 10 0 10 0

9 11 1 9 9

10 12 1 8 8

11 13 1 7 7

12 14 3.5 6 21

13 15 3.5 5 17.5

14 16 0 4 0

15 17 0 3 0

16 18 0 2 0

17 19 0 1 0

88.5

average benefit .885 damage per gun

 

 

Yikes, so if the Dictator 2 is locked on to a regular dictator, that model is doing 1.77 points of extra damage which is quite a bit for a 5dt model to handle.

 

Looking at the above data, an improved TL on a dictator 2 is even worse and probably a steal considering point cost. Tack on a vet WSO and you are capitalizing on the abilities of the overdriven cannon.

 

Also, considering that lets say that section with the dictator overdrives first in turn and then the player doesnt activate that section until the last of next turn and you have capitalized on the overdrive even more as defensive fire(which I now call the reverse whisper technique. ::P: Please correct me if this isn't how it's supposed to work. ). So in a way Joel, I don't think .5 points of extra damage per gun is accurate.

 

Now lets look at the pod concept and lets put the overcharge capacitors on the Rhino,

 

1.) Gun vs +2 armor

-3 -1 0 1 0

-2 0 0 2 0

-1 1 0 3 0

0 2 0 4 0

1 3 0 5 0

2 4 1 6 6

3 5 1 7 7

4 6 0 8 0

5 7 0 9 0

6 8 1 10 10

7 9 1 9 9

8 10 0 8 0

9 11 1 7 7

10 12 1 6 6

11 13 1 5 5

12 14 3.5 4 14

13 15 3.5 3 10.5

14 16 0 2 0

15 17 0 1 0

74.5

increased damage per gun= .745

 

 

 

and again with TL

2) gun vs +2arm w/TL

0 2 0 1 0

1 3 0 2 0

2 4 1 3 3

3 5 1 4 4

4 6 0 5 0

5 7 0 6 0

6 8 1 7 7

7 9 1 8 8

8 10 0 9 0

9 11 1 10 10

10 12 1 9 9

11 13 1 8 8

12 14 3.5 7 24.5

13 15 3.5 6 21

14 16 0 5 0

15 17 0 4 0

16 18 0 3 0

17 19 0 2 0

18 20 0 1 0

94.5

average damage per gun= .945

 

looking at it merely statistically (that is unless I made a mistake which is entirely possible and also we all know there is more involved than just statistics.), a rhino with an overcharge capacitor pod isnt doing that much more damage than a dictator 2 with it's guns. so the pod cost could be related to the hard target value of the guns. I dont know but since experienced players do not have a problem with the D2's guns, this probably wouldnt be a problem either.

 

What I do know however, that the original crit chart would decrease the effect of overdrive. I guess I will be enforcing the use of the original crit chart from now on.

 

 

Thanks for listening.

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I'm not sure if it resolved itself earlier... But:

Is the overdrive function a part of the Gkw-14 weapon system (like the BL Dictator)? Or, is the Overdrive an integril part of the '70 chassis?

 

It's my humble opinion that the overdrive function should either be a part of the weapon or the chassis... Not, a pod in and of itself. 'Else everybody and their Grandma's dog will be Overdriving their stuff.

 

As far as all them numbers are concerned... I think we're looking too much into it. Instead of simply glossing it as "cheese", look for way to defeat it.

 

The '70 Dictator, like the Rhino before it, and the StarHawk VI after it, is just another threat to be dealt with on the battlefield.

 

To coin a phrase, "Evolve, or die."

:;):

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Regarding Topic #1... perhaps consider the fact that "reality" cannot always be fully incorporated into a "static" game whereby miniatures on a tabletop full of terrain represent a battle. So, this issue of averaging remaining movements versus just using the new DT level is representative of this conflict. IMHO this ruling makes a lot of sense and has never proven to be broken. Regardless of whether the model took damage before or after the shooting phase movement will have decreased the same amount which is dependent on how many DT's were taken in defensive fire. Frankly, I think any difference would simply be splitting hairs.

 

Regarding Topic #2... I've seen the GKW 14's be used to devastating effects (particularly against Super Heavies). But, each time they did a significant amount of damage or criticals it was directly related to whether or not the player got a target lock AND he got a high-low split [dice roll] in his favor against the target. Outside of that I've not seen anything to suggest that these guns are unbalanced, especially since the unit cost was updated to 455 points.

 

Personally though, I sorta favor the idea that the only CAV with "overdrive" capacity is the Black Lightning Limited Edition Dictator, aka Dictator 2/prototype. Having "overdrive" on more than one "special" unit doesn't make the unit so special or unique anymore.

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The overdrive capability is inherent to the guns not the chassis. So in fact any model can have it. It just has to pay the points for it. Really encourage your players to try new things to beat it. It opens up a whole new dimension of the game. However, if it truly becomes a problem just limit that unit to experienced players in your games.

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I've never had a problem whippin' 70's. Just gang up on them with IFM's and a Rhino or a Revenant. ::): Infantry and Air both work good if you catch one off by itself too.

 

Remember, CAV and all other games is about suspension of disbelief. ::):

 

Be patient and wait until that new sweetie the Starhawk VI hits the store. I gurantee a bunch of 70 Dic drivers trade up. The Revenant also handles them pretty roughly too.

 

I gave up trying to run the stats on this game. LOL. Just go with it and have fun ::):

 

 

Hey!!! How come I don't have the BL LE???? ::D:

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Ok,

 

I have done some thinking and I am ok with #1. What I do when I have extra movement on a CAV is I place different colored dice next to the model to denote how much movement the CAV has left. That way after firing, everybody is on the same page as far as how much movement that unit has left so that way nobody forgets. Now, if that unit has taken damage, it will force a cross-reference on the table again instead of just taking what movement is listed on the dice. Just takes a tiny bit longer.

 

In regards to topic #2, I guess its just a question on gaming group 'maturity'. Since it is a relatively new gaming group, it is common to see someone field both a rhino and a mastodon in a 2000 point game with no soft armor fielded<sigh, still trying to break them of that habit. Heck they still think a vanquisher is the thing to take against tsuisekis and AT-23 equipped infantry. LOL>. When you are working in that dynamic, the Dictator 2 is way powerful and way too fast.

I am still intrigued by the idea of an overcharge pod though. :upside: It probably would become a must have item but realistically, why wouldnt the other UCORS quickly copy the type of guns on the Dictator 2? Evolve or die right? I would MUCH rather see that happen than have the rach have the monopoly on that type of special weapon (much like the AEC have a monopoly on special IF weapons).OH-OH it has started! <NIGHTMARISH VISIONS of RACH and TERRAN codexes dance in my head> ::o: I am always a bit afraid that this game is gonna turn into W40K or even MW when it comes to unbalanced faction specific insanity.

It really would be neat to have more choices of pods (like maybe a Jamming pod <-2 TL if enemy launches indirect fire attack near model with double drift if enemy fails to TL> or an assault pod <increases ACA of model>).

I would still like to know if anybody thinks that a dictator 2 runs and overcharges its guns at the same time is kinda odd.

 

 

Thank you all for letting me think this through. ::D:

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Nobody will deny that the '70 Dictator's guns are scary. If somebody builds a army with only Hard targets it will rule the day. But that is the key to CAV you have to have a balance of hard and soft targets.

 

You mentioned a 2000 point game I can promise you with a game of over 1500 points I will have a Whisper. I can also promise that if there is any unit on the field with one of the 14's I consider it a prime target for the Whisper. Not only will a Whisper devestate a 6 point CAV you can almost count on a unit like a '70 Dictator upgraded which will give you the most bang for your Whisper buck.

 

To me Personaly the's guns while very scary on paper are not a scary as the Rhino's Rotary Gauss. Those guns are a 8 track weapon that is still scary after the unit takes a few points of damage. With the Dictator 70 if you put a few points of damage on the unit he can no longer afford to "Overdrive" unless he is giving up the unit for death.

 

So it is really a balncing act. Teach someone who is obsesed with the overdrive of the '70 Dictator to think more. Use more soft targets use more Whisper's of only to take his '70 from him.

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I have no issue with the movement, but I would like to share a few views of mine in concern to CAVs like the Dictator 70.

 

We tend to look at many 6DTs CAVs as "heavy cruisers" if you can understand the reason we consider supers like "Battleships". Basically, although by design they are "Heavies", they are more on par as a "Light Super", sharing the speed of a Heavy with the raw power of a Super. totally ingenius, if you ask me.

 

On the higher end of the spectrum is the Starhawk VI, and of course, you really get what you pay for. Hands down, the Starhawk VI is my personal favorite. On the lower end of that same spectrum are CAVs like the Duelist or Ronin. A few upgrades and your right around the point cost and capabilities of the higher end of the spectrum.

 

You get what you pay for in CAV, I'm a firm believer in that, so a 455 point Dictator 70 is right on par with say, an Ogre or a Mastadon. Your trading a DT and an ARM point for better speed. your trading a bit of resiliance for something more "surgical" in its handling, because, no matter what you upgrade on your Dictator 70, it would hardly match one on one the sheer toughness of a CAV that can throw down past 6DTs, like an Ogre.

 

CAVs like the Dictator 70 or Starhawk VI seem to me like they bridge a gap between Heavy and Super Heavy. So perhaps, thats something that could be explained to newbies, who flock to these CAVs.

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Kamut,

 

So are you saying that the basic skeletal ruleset for CAV can be imported into space combat with little effort? Essentially CAV-SPACE? hmm switch soft targets over to fighters and small craft and hard targets to capital ships? With a little change in the movement rules perhaps.. SWEET! ^_^

Your ingenious Kamut! ::):

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