Terrain Options

[Sunkin]

Hello, I'm looking for some help in finding the best terrain system for me. I have so many miniatures painted now I want to put them into some dioramas. I've tried a few without success. Long story short I suck at it so I've been doing some research and am at a point where I just want to ask for some help from those who know more.

 

I've tried foam core but its a lot harder then I expected and the results aren't really as good as others I've seen. For example Hirst Arts results look amazing. That's pretty much exactly what I want in result and customizability. BUT its also crazy expensive upfront cost.and in the end a per piece price could be nuts if I don't furnish my office in the stuff. Also it looks heavy and I don't know how high of a tower I could build.(Orthanc?). So then I found Winterdale which looks awesome and is super easy. But there is no customizability.

 

So now I'm here looking for help. I was hoping you guys would have some different sources for me and would be willing to rate them for me(and others) based on what I see are the primary criteria. 1 being bad 10 being good.

 

Cost: How much does it cost to make a single piece? Dwarven Forge painted for example is close to 1 while foam core is about a 10.

 

Difficulty: For a beginner how hard is it to make quality stuff? Is there a huge learning curve? Again Dwarven Forge prepainted would get a 10 here while sculpting from clay or something gets a 1.

 

Customizability: How original are the result?. Hirst Arts you can make almost any "map" you'd want while Winterdale you buy a piece and that's what it looks like for everyone.

 

Functionality:  This would be stuff like how heavy it is(looking at Hirst) or how fragile it is. Stuff like that

 

Quality: how good does the average end result look? Some terrain pieces are amazing and you could take a picture of them and they look real. Then there is paper print out terrain which looks like crap.

 

 

I don't care about painting. Obviously I'd like to paint it on my own but I could paint over whatever they got anyway so that shouldn't come into play.

 

I really want to make the right choice and if any of you could help me out here I would greatly appreciate it.

 

Thanks.

[hosercanadian]

I have worked with a variety of mediums so I will chime in on a few options.

 

Hirst Arts is expensive up front, but only relatively.  The molds were my biggest lay-out, but what I selected gave me a wide variety for the genre.  So I bought one set.  Plaster is dirt cheap, but brittle.  High grade dental plaster is strong but expensive.  Mixing your own "dental plaster" with plaster and cement is strong and dirt cheap.  Once you get the hang of building, multiple options are easy.  I built a modular dungeon to cover 4'x6' with a total cost of about $250 (including buying insulation foam for base).  Total weight for that is maybe 20lbs.

 

Cost - 8.  Sounds weird, but cheap, weak stuff is not good when you end up having to replace it numerous times.

Difficulty - 7.  There are a lot of tutorials on the site and they walk you through it all.  I find a bit of planning up front makes it easy.  I still make the odd mistake when I forget to test fit pieces for size.

Customizability - 10.  What I built is like lego.  Check out my blog and you will see how I built semi-standard points to join and otherwise went wild.

Functionality - 6.  To make good looking pieces often means sacrificing access (standard for all options).  To keep it from being fragile, this means less removable pieces in each area.  Although very sturdy, corners are prone to rubbing off of paint or the occasional chip.  No major impact on appearance or function but a minor annoyance.

Quality - varies.  I have seen some absolute amazing stuff.  I have seen some downright terrible stuff.  Mine I put in the middle some where.

[hosercanadian]

Foam core is an excellent medium with practice.  There are key techniques you need to learn.  First is precision cuts/measurements.  The cleaner the cut (and sharper the blade) the better the edges will be.  Second is cladding techniques.  These range from adding paper or card to mask joins to using plaster to cover the outside and give a concrete style finish.  Finally it is attention to detail.  Broad flat surfaces are boring and don't exist.  Adding in minor details from bits, broken machinery, posters, plants, damage, architectural flourishes all add both interest and realism to the end result.  Fortunately not all of these techniques are difficult to learn or acquire a reasonable level of competency.

 

Cost - 10.  There are cheaper options but unless you are scratching in the dirt with sticks and rocks to play your games, there aren't many that are as durable.  See my comment above about durable meaning cheap.

Difficulty - 5.  It requires a good attention to detail including measurements and smooth cutting.  All learnable skills, but there is that learning curve.  The really good looking stuff takes a lot of effort.  Take a look at my urban terrain for an example of how to combine techniques to achieve a table-top level result with minimal effort.

Customizability - 3.  Each piece will need to be rigid and single function to be durable.  However, you can make each piece unique to have a variety of pieces available.  I have seen stackable/modular buildings done but they didn't look very good.

Functionality - 8.  A well built piece will withstand the rigors of gaming and model weight.  A poorly built piece will crumble or break.  A poorly designed piece will catapult models through the air.  Yes, I have seen this done.  Foam core castle walls with an overly large parapet and one heavy model sent a row of models a few inches away.

Quality - varies.  Poorly built stuff is easy, but looks like poorly built stuff.  Using the key skills I mentioned above really amazing stuff is possible, or even the table top standard I do with minimal effort.

[hosercanadian]

Insulation foam is an interesting medium.  Done properly it is sturdy and reliable.  It can be difficult to learn how to do detailed etching and designs and skill is a key factor in that.  To properly use it for terrain boards, hills and contours requires specialized tools.

 

Cost - 1 to 3.  Insulation foam can be expensive depending on where you live.  It is also colour coded for density.  The blue stuff is the densest and most likely to survive rough handling.  It is also $50-100/ sheet depending on size and thickness.  It is also the most difficult to inscribe details in.  Pink is less expensive, but depends on your location.  The specialized tools are another factor.  You will need (at a minimum) a large serrated knife (bread knife), a heat gun (not pricey but a specialized tool), a foam cutter (optional, I don't care for them myself, others swear my them), glue gun, fine and super fine sandpaper (2000 grit costs quite a bit) and lots of exacto blades (the foam is tough on blades and dulls them faster than you would believe).

Difficulty - 1 to 7.  It depends what you are trying to build.  Buildings etched with details and carved to museum quality are master level skill.  A crude hill plunked down less difficult.  Basic principles of design, planning in stages and incorporating other materials are needed for high quality products.  Painting is another factor.  Aerosols dissolve foam.  You are left using other options (or adding stages) to paint it.

Customizability - 2.  Less customizable than foamcore due to the weakness of thinner pieces.  There are playing pieces you could never make out of foam because they would break whenever handled.  A basic set of features like hills, cliffs, etc can be designed to be used multiple ways.

Functionality - 5 to 8.  The range depends on the produced terrain.  A building will have out of scale thick walls to be durable.  Hills will be lightweight and durable, especially with sealed with a heat gun and coated with a sealant.  I have watched 8 oz pewter miniatures hit foam hills and break them in half but I have also seen well built hills have a minor dent from the same miniature and same type of drop (did I mention I have played with some very clumsy gamers over the years?).

Quality - varies.  Basically the good stuff requires lots of effort and skill.  Adding flock, careful planning and cutting, shaping and detailing all produce great results on average initial products.  But the skill and cost of those add to the other categories above.

[kristof65]

One thing you didn't ask to factor is Time.

 

For example, Dwarven Forge pre-painted are going to be a 10 when it comes to time, while Hirst Arts is going to be a 2 or 3 and foam core a 5 or 6.

 

In my experience, the best way to figure out what you like for terrain is to simply start building some in a bunch of different techniques, and see what works for you.

[TGP]

I have used insulation foam for terrain building. But my experience is radically different from HoserCanadian's.

 

Insulation foam is a cheap, easy to work medium. It is sturdy enough for gaming and lightweight. It Is easy to learn how to do basic rocks and hills, plus a little bit of skill can yield fabulous results. To use it for terrain, hills, and simple buildings requires basic tools.

 

Seriously.

 

Ball point pens, snap blade knives, a kitchen knife or two from the dollar rack and a hot wire foam cutter. The last one was a $20-$30 item.

 

The pale blue stuff is Dow Chemical's trademarked color for their foam products which they provide in many different densities and thicknesses — all sold under their registered trademark name: Styrofoam®.

 

The pink stuff is Owens Corning's trademarked color for their foam products which they provide in many different densities and thicknesses — all sold under their registered trademark name: Foamular®. (Sometimes they use the Pink Panther® cartoon character in their advertising as well.)

 

The colors ARE NOT anything to do with density or insulation value in my experience. Both companies compete to make all useful grades of the stuff.

 

BTW the generic name for the material is: extruded polystyrene foam — often abbreviated EPS, [edit] (by people outside the industry, but really the abbreviation should be XPS). [fixed. all thanks to Kang, see below]

Edited March 17, 2016 by TGP

[Sunkin]

One thing you didn't ask to factor is Time.

 

For example, Dwarven Forge pre-painted are going to be a 10 when it comes to time, while Hirst Arts is going to be a 2 or 3 and foam core a 5 or 6.

 

In my experience, the best way to figure out what you like for terrain is to simply start building some in a bunch of different techniques, and see what works for you.

 

Yeah good call on time. though for Hirst isn't the time mostly just waiting for things to dry? Or does it take a long time to cast and assemble and everything?

 

I tried foam core and insulation foam before. But after that it all starts getting a bit pricey. I'm willing to pay for the result i want but figured i would do some research before i pick one. I was hoping there were more options i was unaware of aside from Hirst Arts, Dwarven Forge and Winterdale and DYI Foam/Sticks. The rating system is just how my brain works i guess. Plus i figured others might find it usefull if they find the thread.

[Bruunwald]

 

One thing you didn't ask to factor is Time.

 

For example, Dwarven Forge pre-painted are going to be a 10 when it comes to time, while Hirst Arts is going to be a 2 or 3 and foam core a 5 or 6.

 

In my experience, the best way to figure out what you like for terrain is to simply start building some in a bunch of different techniques, and see what works for you.

 

Yeah good call on time. though for Hirst isn't the time mostly just waiting for things to dry? Or does it take a long time to cast and assemble and everything?

 

I tried foam core and insulation foam before. But after that it all starts getting a bit pricey. I'm willing to pay for the result i want but figured i would do some research before i pick one. I was hoping there were more options i was unaware of aside from Hirst Arts, Dwarven Forge and Winterdale and DYI Foam/Sticks. The rating system is just how my brain works i guess. Plus i figured others might find it usefull if they find the thread.

 

I love Bruce's (Hirst) stuff, but it does indeed take a lot of your time in prep. Especially if you're thinking of a large project, which it sounds like you are. A largish design could take upwards of thirty to eighty casts, all of which take about half an hour each to demold (in warm weather), and then anywhere from a day to three days to actually dry well enough that glue will stick them together without sliding. Some people stick them in the oven to hasten this, but in my experience that can make them more brittle. One of the reasons I learned as many other techniques as I did (including sculpting and then molding my own sculpts to cast in resin), was to escape the endless drudgery of casting gypsum-cement-based bricks for days and days just to wait and wait even longer to stack them.

 

All that said, it sounds to me like you have something somewhat specific in mind. Maybe we can help direct you better if we know a little better what you are thinking of.

 

Orthanc? Can you be more specific. Are you thinking of Gothic? Field stone? Very large? Lots of towers?

 

There are materials. There are pre-made/pre-painted models. There are things in-between. Some people (including some here) will even build things for you.

[Pochi]

If you are looking for buildings, I recently received my order from Tabletop World. They are resin and come unpainted. So yes, they look the same as everyone else's...until you paint it how you want it.

 

They have a moderate selection at the moment to choose from. They are nice and I haven't had any mold lines or anything to clean up. Fairly expensive when you factor in shipping and conversion rates (they are in Croatia.)

 

As far as just terrain and not any type of buildings, so far I have just made my own out of things lying around. I haven't tried any of the Hirst or Dwarven Forge (I have drooled plenty though!)

[canuckotter]

I love Bruce's (Hirst) stuff, but it does indeed take a lot of your time in prep. Especially if you're thinking of a large project, which it sounds like you are. A largish design could take upwards of thirty to eighty casts, all of which take about half an hour each to demold (in warm weather), and then anywhere from a day to three days to actually dry well enough that glue will stick them together without sliding. Some people stick them in the oven to hasten this, but in my experience that can make them more brittle. One of the reasons I learned as many other techniques as I did (including sculpting and then molding my own sculpts to cast in resin), was to escape the endless drudgery of casting gypsum-cement-based bricks for days and days just to wait and wait even longer to stack them.

Agreed. I'm a fan of the HA blocks - and can't wait to get the new rubble molds! - but it takes a LOT of time. The casting time isn't a big issue for me, because I have a TV with DVR in the room beside where I do my casting. I'll watch an episode of a show, pause, then go do a batch of molds. It only takes a few minutes each time, and over the course of a week or two of doing that in the evenings you can end up with a LOT of pieces built up. It does mean that you need to think ahead a bit - if you decide you want to build something today and you haven't done enough casting, you're outta luck. That's why I have a bunch of dollar-store cookie trays stacked in a storage unit, loaded down with all sorts of pre-cast pieces I can snag and put to use at any time.

 

Even aside from casting time though, it can take a long time to stack the pieces, glue them together, fill gaps, etc. I find I can't get more than 2 or 3 rows stacked & glued at a time before I need to stop and let the glue finish curing enough to stop moving... For me, that means anywhere between 30 minutes and an hour. And I'm pretty obsessive about filling gaps afterwards... I probably spent 3 hours or so working on the Warlock House project to fill all the gaps, blend pieces together, and so on. I think I'm both slower and more obsessive about gaps than most people though. It's also a much bigger issue with fieldstone than with the dressed stone molds (aka gothic dungeon, wizard's tower, etc), and I almost exclusively use the fieldstone because I much prefer the look.

 

All that said - I still do a fair bit with HA, and have plans for a bunch more projects (assuming I can ever figure out why my casts are suddenly full of bubbles all the flippin' time when they used to be almost bubble-free ). You can make some really fantastic stuff with it. And if you don't mind doing a bit of planning, get the ruined fieldstone mold (#75) and you can make a lot of your stuff dual-purpose - since each piece fits together with a clone of itself, you can easily make buildings that work fully intact, or can have sections pulled off to represent a ruined structure. More effort & planning but it does give you extra versatility.  

 

Anyway. I hope that helps.  

[Doug Sundseth]

When you're talking about waiting half an hour for glue to dry, that sounds like you're using PVA/Elmers or the like. Would there be any problem with using (say) 5-minute epoxy instead to speed the drying process? (It would require regular glue mixing, which might obviate much of the time advantage.)

[Kang]

EPS stands for exPANDED polystyrene. The white beady textured foam. The extruded polystyrene (blue/pink insulation type) is actually abbreviated to XPS.

 

In my strange little world of backyard hobby metal casting anyhow. Possibly I am mistaking niche hobby jargon for actual generally accepted terminology. I use the stuff for lost foam metal casting. Which might be one way to turn easy-to-carve foam terrain into durable cast metal. But that would involve a certain level of personal risk and learning a whole other hobby, probably only a viable option if you are already mad for molten metal like me. :)

 

But I have thought about trying it. Carving some foam dungeon walls then transforming them into cast aluminum using the powers of earth wind and fire that I keep locked up in my back shed, that is.

 

Good ways i have found to shape either type of styrofoam include filing, sanding, carving with a VERY sharp hobby knife, hot wire cutting (easy to build your own rig way cheaper than buying one), and using a dremel tool to router out shapes with a carbide cutting bit, they come in various shapes. Avoid sanding or grinding bits; if you are not very careful with how you set your rpm's, they will get loaded up with melted foam which then hardens into solid polystyrene and drastically changes the profile of the cut you are making, ruining your work before you ever even notice anything has gone wrong.

 

I am a big hirstarts fan too. I recently read about a method for making rtv silicone molds on the extreme cheap. This can really speed up the casting process because you can cast enough individual bricks to make ie. a wall section, assemble it, make your mold, then use it to cast as many whole wall sections as you want. I have not tried this, but the guy who shared this tip with me learned it when he was working at the Royal Alberta Museum (where they could certainly have afforded the good stuff that's actually designed for molding) and they used it to make successful resin castings of fish (some halfway cleaned with guts hanging out) for a native fishing village display. So you can get museum quality castings from molds made this way.

 

You want to use the cheapest nastiest 100% silicone caulking you can find at your local hardware store. But there is a trick to it: they put chemical inhibitors in that stuff to keep it from setting up inside the tube, so you need to wash it out. Here's how...

 

Fill up a bucket with water and give it a couple squirts of liquid dish detergent. Cut off the end of the caulking tube and squeeze the whole thing into the bucket in one big blob. Then knead the blob with your hands, making sure not to fold it over and trap water inside it. It will be smelly. Eventually you will feel the blob start to stiffen and feel less gooey, that is when you are good to use it for making your mold. If you have sensitive skin, wear rubber gloves and coat them wih dish detergent (on the outside) before you start kneading.

 

Something like hydrostone (I think that is the name) might be a decent compromise between the affordability of PoP and the durabity of dental plaster, if you do go the HA route.

 

Hope some of this is helpful... Or at least interesting.

 

Kang

[TGP]

@Sunkin :: a few questions.

 

How big of a diorama are you aiming at?

Is it for display or photographic backdrop?

Is this for gaming? Building dungeon maps?

(You mentioned maps once or twice.)

Are you wanting to build several dioramas?

Do they need to travel, get lugged to conventions or gaming tournaments?

Are your painted figures all 25 / 28 / 30 / 32 mm or some other scale?

Edited March 17, 2016 by TGP

[Doug Sundseth]

For foam, I'll mention that the best foam cutter I've used has been a bandsaw. Smooth results and no toxic gasses, but the foam debris can be a pain to clean up.

 

As always with a bandsaw, they work better if you keep your fingers attached to your hands. Be careful out there.

[Sunkin]

@Sunkin :: a few questions.

 

How big of a diorama are you aiming at?

Is it for display or photographic backdrop?

Are you wanting to build several dioramas?

Do they need to travel, get lugged to conventions or gaming tournaments?

Are your painted figures all 25 / 28 / 30 / 32 mm or some other scale?

 

I have a ton of ideas of what i want to build but i'm sure not all of them will happen.

 

Basically here is my deal... I dropped over 1k into the last reaper kickstarter and I will be damned if those mini's end up in a tote box. I'm in the process of slowly building myself an office in my basement and i've dedicated two full book shelves to this project. My plan is to turn each shelf into a scene/diorama to display my miniatures.

 

Second major thing i want to make is a large tower. I snagged this tomato trellis from my mother in-laws garden. I plan on turning this into some kind of cross between Orthanc and the unfinished death star. Lots of stairs, beams, unfinished walls stuff like that. Lots of places to put mini's in a battle scene or something going on all over it. I have a small table to put it on now but eventually i want this to be the focal point in a large fully done war table(though that's many years away).

 

 

None of this will need to travel very often. But I will need to be able to move it to a different location if we move.

 

As for scale. All my mini's will likely be reaper or games workshop.