Suspended ALPHA a portable gaming table.

[ced1106]

I can't help but to think this is a rebranded Chinese made product.

 

Good sleuthing. Even the folded *case* has the same colored handle! : https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41KiPEorOkL.jpg

 

Oh, and I accidentally clicked on the Amazon link to the seller of the tabletop product, then accidentally clicked on the button to contact them, then accidentally asked if they knew about this KS. 

 

Also, amusing to see the replies from backers "doubling down" on their backing. Reminds me of the good ol' days with LOAD!

Edited July 24, 2016 by ced1106

[vutpakdi]

My guess is the seller on Amazon is the company who is making the table for the Kickstarter creator. Doing so is a smart move if it leads to a new market.

 

Ron

[ced1106]

 (Deleted. See next post.)

Edited July 24, 2016 by ced1106

[TimmoWarner]

I believe the video of the unfolding of the table was done with one of the Amazon tables as well.

 

The video is framed so that you cannot see the actual width of the table, but you can infer by watching that it's definitely not 4' wide.

 

If he's actually using the Amazon design and getting it manufactured so it's wider, fine, just tell us that. But all of the stolen artwork and "We designed this table" talk is making me wary.

[Darkmeer]

The $50 more doesn't bother me because he is adding 17" in width and some inches in height. For a smaller production run, that feels within an acceptable range. However, his "I know nothing about the table on Amazon, and I designed this table" reply to my question of the similarity is a huge red flag for me.

 

Ron

 

He probably is making the same table with larger dimensions, but if he's claiming design credit, he doesn't deserve it.  Smaller run, okay, fine, let it be $50 more.  But not admitting it's the same table throws this out for me.

[ced1106]

EDIT: Okay, so I contact World Outdoor Products Inc. about the photos and the Alpha table is being manufactured by the parent company of WOP, so have permission to use the photos. The Alpha table *is* a larger table and is not the same table as the WOP one.

Edited July 24, 2016 by ced1106

[cmorse]

EDIT: Okay, so I contact World Outdoor Products Inc. about the photos and the Alpha table is being manufactured by the parent company of WOP, so have permission to use the photos. The Alpha table *is* a larger table and is not the same table as the WOP one.

 

That just makes being evasive about it dumb... There is nothing wrong with the idea of working with a manufacturer to customize their existing product to fill a niche for a kickstarter. It could even be a selling point since the current product seems to have good reviews and shows the manufacture can handle the job. "There is a company who makes an amazing folding table, but it's too small for gamer. We want to work with them to make it perfect to fit your needs!"

[ced1106]

Yep. To be clear, Terra Firma has the same parent company as WOP, and is not part of WOP itself. But TF has permission from WOP's parent company to use these WOP photos. Unexpected, but there ya go.

 

On BGG, we had an entire thread about Star Trader's use of other artists' work without their permission, and we had a possible scam here on Reaper of some terrain KS that used, without permission, the photos of another game terrain company. I think, nowadays, on KS, if you have a picture that even might be mistaken as taken from someone else's site, you should state that you have permission, so you can head off a possible misunderstanding. 

 

Anyway, hope to see this table reach the mass market and become more affordable. If any of you remember the water balloons KS, they eventually made it to Walgreens and other everyday stores!

[Cranky Dog]

Anyway, hope to see this table reach the mass market and become more affordable. If any of you remember the water balloons KS, they eventually made it to Walgreens and other everyday stores!

If there's a market for it, someone will make it.

 

But I doubt it will come out of this KS. It already looks like there will be tons of compromises that would make it different than the original claims.

[Firmer Terra]

Hey guys... We are firmerterra.com... I was just notified of this thread so I am posting a reply. 

 

Here is the nitty gritty...

 

We designed the dimensions of this unit, structural modifications, etc.  This table does not exits, or has never existed, anywhere.

We have full permission to use these pictures.

We are not associated in any way with the folks that you think we are associated with.

This was our dimensional design.

 

Someone assumed we are reselling an existing project.  We are NOT.

They pretty much had our campaign suspended.  Our KS died today.

 

So we will be retailing this table on our site if we can't resolve anything with KS.  We will honor the price for our original backers. 

 

I apologize to anyone that though otherwise, but we are not trying to scam anyone, nor are we trying to be shady.  If I included the fact that these pictures are used with full permission would that have helped?  We are businessmen that play tabletop games and we wanted a table that we could use in any room.  We just wanted KS to be a launching board for a table that we (as a gamer group) wanted to use.  We needed the volume and the retool to make this happen.  Everything was going well until this afternoon.

 

The news today that the campaign was suspended really knocked the wind out of my sails.  I feel as if I failed the goodwill of my backers.

 

I apologize to any backer about this situation.  We will be modifying our site with some news and updates. 

 

If you have any questions or suggestions please go on firmerterra.com and email me.

 

Best,

 

Joe

[ced1106]

 

 

If I included the fact that these pictures are used with full permission would that have helped? 

 

I think so. On BoardGameGeek, we recently had an *eleven page* discussion of a KS who used art without permission from other sources: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1549166/star-traders-kickstarter-and-borrowed-assets

 

KickStarter's had creators reselling Chinese products: 

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6860338

http://www.kickstarterforum.org/is-this-going-to-be-the-biggest-scam-yet-the-neptune-pine-t1417.html

http://www.dailydot.com/irl/bomber-survival-kickstarter-scam-alibaba-baiyuheng/

http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2015/05/68552-scampaign-alert-beware-of-crowdfunders-re-labeling-already-made-products/

IIRC, Someone on KS was reselling a Chinese skateboard or hoverboard or something as well. 

 

Other scams and KS projects involving plagiarism

http://observer.com/2012/04/this-is-what-a-kickstarter-scam-looks-like/

http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/anita-sarkeesian-fanart-plagiarism-theft/

http://hyperallergic.com/139769/native-activist-charges-art-students-with-plagiarism/

 

Since I know you have permission to use these photos, I hope this gets resolved properly. 

 

Any chance you can get a prototype table made from the manufacturer and have photos of it? 

 

[vutpakdi]

It would help if you were upfront and consistent.

 

Your campaign implies that the table shown is entirely of your own design, and the setup videos imply that the table already exists. Yet, you also say that the table doesn't exist and that you "designed" the dimensions, structural changes, and material specifications while studiously not saying that the rest of the table design is not yours.

 

If you had just said that your table is based on this existing table but improved in these ways, no one would have been suspicious.. If you had said that the photos and table in the video are of the table that inspired you, then people would have felt more comfortable.

 

There is a market for a table like the one shown but adapted for the wargaming market. There is interest shown here and elsewhere. Just be upfront and consistent.

 

Ron

Edited July 28, 2016 by vutpakdi

[Firmer Terra]

I've invested into several KS projects.  Some of them years ago, and I'm still waiting to hear back.

Honestly, I did not pick up on the level of suspicion.

I am appealing the situation to KS, but as it stands now I think KS has a policy of no response no correction.

 

So my choices are to reattempt a KS, go to Indiegogo, or to just serve the gaming community through a retail website directly.

What do you think?

 

Joe

[cmorse]

Based on what you've said, as long as they actually look into it, I would think Kickstarter would unsuspend you. Now that there is more information it seems like the person who reported you was a bit hasty. However you did use the exact same pictures as an existing product listed on Amazon with no disclaimer attached and when asked in the kickstarter comments you refused to acknowledge any connection despite being identical photos to your's down to the bad clipping. That's plenty to make people wonder if something shady might be going on.