Jump to content

GMs vs. Rockets


PatrickK
 Share

Recommended Posts

I have some questions concerning indirect fire.

I had a squad with 2x Tiamat and 1x Specter-B. The opponent one Silverback and one Thunderbird.

They all make target lock actions and everybody is in the long range band.

 

1. A Tiamat fires first. Strike-Point roll is 10+ and it gets a -1 modifier because of the long range band. Which means only a roll of 11 or 12 will be a direct hit, every other result drifts.

 

2. Now the Specter-B fires at its target. The Strike-Point roll 10+ is modified with 0 (range band long -1; Wizzo +1). There is no +1 for the FCS because the Dictator-B is the only vehicle in its squad equipped with one.

Then the GMs are fired at a Target Point roll of 7+ (long 8+ and -1 because of the improved range of the GMs). The roll is modified by +1 because of the Wizzo.

 

3. If the Specter-B's Strike-Point roll had been successful the second Tiamat could now skip its own Strike-Point roll and use the Specter-B's Chain-Fire Pod. It would then start rolling for the Rockets immediately, four times against the target point roll of 6+.

 

4. Now it is the other teams turn. The Thunderbird fires indirectly and the Strike-Point roll is modified by +3 (-1 long range; +2 targeting comp.; +1 Wizzo; +1 for the FCS in the Silverback).

 

5. And now the horror. The Silverback fires its GMs indirectly at long range. Target Point roll 7+ (improved range). The roll is modified with +3 (+2 targeting comp.; +1 Wizzo).

The FCS is useless for the Silverback itself as it only gives a +1 for each additional in a squad and a Strike-Point roll. The Silverback's GMs use target point rolls.

 

Is this the correct way of number crunching?

 

And if it is correct: What is the best way to make the Tiamats hit anything at all. If you use the Heavy R20's Smart you can up the RAV to 9 which is a very effective way to hurt targets like a Thunderbird.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 15
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Strike-point rolls are a 10+ roll, so as per CAVBOSS in the grenade topic you'll only need a 10 to hit no matter how bad the mods get. I later found this on page 36 as well.

 

With regards to helping Tiamats hit, I think you answered that with Chain-fire. Add a pilot upgrade on the chain-fire unit if you want better odds.  Or (perhaps if the other side is using a bunch of mortar infantry) use the Tiamat's SMART in the other direction and start tossing Party Zone Circles Of Doom, who cares where they land.

 

If we're sticking to Ritterlich units I'd be tempted to mix one Panther into a Tiamat squad, to sneak ahead and use Chain-fire.  But I'm not exactly sure how Chain-fire works on Panthers since they don't have an indirect weapon; which range band do they use in the strike point roll table?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ha, thanks! I spent half an hour looking for that but somehow p.36 eluded me.

 

So besides skipping the Strike-Point roll via Chain-Fire Pods, is there any other way to add bonuses to the Tiamat's roll? Besides pilot upgrades of course.

 

I guess the next fire support squad with two Tiamats will include as many FCS and Chain-Fire Pod CAVs as possible then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The numbers look right to me other than the 10+ roll always hits.  So even at long/extreme range you'll need a 10.  Where the negative come in is when you purpose build a fire support unit so all the guys have FCS and a few Chain fire Pods.  Needing a 5 or 6+ for your strike point roll can really ravage the enemy when the whole unit rains down on it.

 

The Silverback I think is designed to help the Tiamets with their strike point rolls.  When/if Ritter gets a unit with Chainfire Pod that links in with the other units it'll be scary.  I'm not sure how the Panther would work in that situation honestly.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The best way to make Tiamats hit anything is to field lots of Tiamats!  

 

Ignore any modifiers for now and just assume you need to roll 10+ to hit your target point.  You have a fire support unit of four Tiamats - here's what happens: 

1) All four Tiamatas fire all four of their respective R20s at the same strike point for a grand total of 16 shots. 
2) Roughly 16% of your shots hit, which means three direct hits.  

3) Of your 12 misses, 33% (4 shots) only drift 3" or less, meaning an additional 4 shots "splashed" your strike point. 

 

So under this mathematically ideal situation, you've slapped your opponents force with seven 7/7 shots...but that's not all! 

 

Those 9 misses have to go *somewhere* and so long as you're not firing too close to your own team, they're either going to explode harmlessly, or land right on top of some poor feckless foe that didn't even know he needed to take cover.  

 

So on the one hand, you can game the electronics to try to bring strike point target down, but on the other hand, you can also just liberally pepper the board with rockets until something dies!

 

(EDIT:  I didn't coffee hard enough, so I mathed bad). 

Edited by Vytau
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the four Tiamats in your example fire just four times with a Strike-Pount Roll. That is a 66% chance that one of them will hit. And then all four R20s will rain down on the target.

But else I completely agree with you. I guess I will try both ways, fancy electronics and blotting out the sun with rockets.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But the four Tiamats in your example fire just four times with a Strike-Pount Roll. That is a 66% chance that one of them will hit. And then all four R20s will rain down on the target.

But else I completely agree with you. I guess I will try both ways, fancy electronics and blotting out the sun with rockets.

 

YIKES!  Glad I joined this thread, because I've been doing indirect fire wrong (making separate strike point rolls for each weapon system).  

 

In that case then, the numbers don't actually change too much:  16% of your shots (albeit in this case full volleys of four shots) still directly hit their target, 33% will still be in "splash" range, and the rest will all plop merrily into your enemy's ranks.  As you point out, it's a 66% chance for one direct hit, and, as the song says, 2 out of 3 ain't bad! 

 

It seems you could still fire all 16 individually, that is, you could still designate 16 unique strike points...but as I re-read the rules, it seems like all shots would be going totally wild since there's a -1 to-hit penalty for every target after the first.  But then, if what Cavboss said in the other thread is true, and 10+ always hits, hell, have at it right? 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Savage Coyote - check out the stats for the Manticore.  Chain-Fire Pod, FCS, TC1, and 4xLight R10.  Stick three of those in with a Tiamat and go to town.

 

Edit: Also, you can stick an External FCS on the Tiamat for 100TVP if I understand the upgrade calculation correctly.

Edited by Gromik
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IIRC, the CFP description assigns a range for the pod if the unit does not have an indirect fire weapon system.  Puma walks up, goes through the target point roll process, then the rest of the squad can choose to use that target point.  At least that's my understanding of the process (keep in mind that I'm not actively playing).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another option would be to spend some of your 20% upgrade points on your Tiamets for bolt-on FCS.  At least make that 10+ start at a 7+ in a unit of four.  

 

As for the manticore's, I'll wait to see the unit structure clarification on them (if I'm playing ritter I want the doctrine; Jon mentioned something about having to follow force organization at CAVCon to get it... so no vehicles with CAV's sort of thing.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That part of squad composition confuses me.  There's nothing I can find that states you have to maintain "only CAV" or "only vehicles" in a squad, even though that's how I interpreted CAVBOSS's KS2 comments.  Infantry and aircraft state that explicitly.  In another thread, several people commented about mixed unit composition within a squad as being legal, but nothing about losing faction doctrine bonuses.  Clarification would definitely help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That part of squad composition confuses me.  There's nothing I can find that states you have to maintain "only CAV" or "only vehicles" in a squad, even though that's how I interpreted CAVBOSS's KS2 comments.  Infantry and aircraft state that explicitly.  In another thread, several people commented about mixed unit composition within a squad as being legal, but nothing about losing faction doctrine bonuses.  Clarification would definitely help.

 

You can mix CAVs and vehicles in a squad - just try it in Force Manager! 

 

Look over pages 40-41 in the rulebook: 

 

  • Recon, attack, and fire support squads can be a mix of CAVs and Vehicles

     

  • Specialist squads can incorporate any models, so you can even mix infantry, cavs, aircraft, and vehicles together. 

     

  • Infantry squads are infantry only. 

     

  • Mechanized Infantry squads are infantry and transports (no limitation on transport types, so mix-and-match CAVs, vehicles, and aircraft). 

     

  • Mortar squads are infantry (most with mortars and task type: fire support) and transports

     

  • Flight squads are aircraft only.

     

  • Transport squads include transport-capable Vehicles OR CAVs OR Aircraft. 

Hope this helps, and that I didn't miss anything! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Reaper User

Patrick, Im going to take your example and work through it and you can compare my version with yours to see how it works out.

 

Squad A: x2 Tiamat & x1 Specter B vs Squad B: x1 Silverback & x1 Thunderbird.

 

Squad A activates 1st. All three models announce they are shooting at the Silverback with indirect-fire (for purposes of this example since you said long range we will set the range at 42" (max long range). They all announce a target-lock action.

1. Set strike point location (in this case the point the Silverback is standing on).

2. Make strike point roll (a 10+ roll). Just roll first since it is a 10+ roll if you roll a natural 2,10,11, or 12 its a mute point as to the mods. Any other number result add  +1 to roll if you can see the strike point, +1 for Wizzo (for Specter only), -1 for long range. So Specter needs final roll to be 9+ and Tiamats 10+. There is no target-lock bonus as both models have basic computers that allow target lock but no bonus. FCS is useless here but I would have added External FCS to my Tiamats as upgrades giving you an additional +2. Since Specter has chain fire pod it should roll first, making additional rolls mute if it hits or you like its final drift point.

3. Any models caught within the AoE of the final strike point location gets an attack at 6+ (the only bonus would be if the tiamats salvo fired (+3).

4. The GMs of the Specter would be at long range so their base target number is 7+ (long range for GM with Imp Rng), +0 for target lock (see above), +1 for wizzo.

 

The return fire works the same and looks like what you have listed. Asking about how to make a Tiamat hit better...besides the add-on FCS upgrade, putting a model with a +2 Active Phase Array in the squad helps a whole lot.

 

Also the CFP description stated by Sgt Crunch does not apply to CAV:SO (not sure if that is correct for CAV2 though).

 

Now on to force composition. To clarify: In order for a force group set up to use faction doctrines you are required (for legal tourney play, you can do it however you want for your home games) you must maintain the TO&E as detailed under each faction, so you could not mix and match CAVs and vehicles (except as part of a Specialist Squad).

 

Now as an add-on we are going to be removing the SA: Bulky from how it affects squad composition. It will still apply to transport but will not affect the number of models in a squad. I will be announcing that as part of an errata update very soon as well.

 

The Force Manager program does allow you to mix as you can as part of an independent force but does not auto-correct for a faction doctrine force. That will be fixed in a new patch. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...