Best Version of DnD?

[BlazingTornado]

57 minutes ago, Pingo said:

 

On a guess, I would hazard that the earlier Dungeons and Dragons artists did not have the skills to match their imaginations, and the later ones did.

No but that's the thing, from day not-quite-1 in Gygax's AD&D monster manual the Chimera was using dragon parts and dragon wings instead of the lion head in front, goat head in the middle and snake head for tail.

And I'm not sure why.

 

The wings especially, make the chimera redundant given the other winged lioncreatures like the manticore, sphinxes and griffin.

 

57 minutes ago, Pingo said:

I do note with some interest that the ancient Greek representation of the Chimera has a female body.

Chimera the classical mythology creature was a female.

Edited April 30, 2017 by BlazingTornado

[Pingo]

21 minutes ago, BlazingTornado said:

No but that's the thing, from day not-quite-1 in Gygax's AD&D monster manual the Chimera was using dragon parts and dragon wings instead of the lion head in front, goat head in the middle and snake head for tail.

And I'm not sure why.

 

The wings especially, make the chimera redundant given the other winged lioncreatures like the manticore, sphinxes and griffin.

 

Chimera the classical mythology creature was a female.

 

It might be interesting to trace through the visual tropes of fantasy art over the twentieth century, especially as they apply to the pulpy fantasy that Gygax in particular was fond of.  Did chimeras like that pop up elsewhere first?

 

Another possibility is that an early idiosyncratic official D&D version by one artist (looks like Jim Holloway's penwork to me, but I could be wrong) influenced all later artists, who basically copied that design but with their own artistic styles.

 

 

[Cranky Dog]

1 hour ago, Pingo said:

 

It might be interesting to trace through the visual tropes of fantasy art over the twentieth century, especially as they apply to the pulpy fantasy that Gygax in particular was fond of.  Did chimeras like that pop up elsewhere first?

 

Another possibility is that an early idiosyncratic official D&D version by one artist (looks like Jim Holloway's penwork to me, but I could be wrong) influenced all later artists, who basically copied that design but with their own artistic styles.

 

 

The previous artwork is from Jim Holloway, but that's the AD&D 2e artwork.

 

The older 1st edition artwork is this one:

The tail is more scorpion like, even though it had no particular ability.

 

You can also say that the classical Greek chimera has been copied by later artists with their own touch (goat's head next to the lion's head, or laying on the middle top of the back and/or composing the read end of the beast). Even the description of it in the Iliad makes reference to fire breathing and a dragon/serpent head (though not necessarily breathing fire *from* the dragon head, but somehow the goat head or lion head could).

 

The wings probably *are* a recent addition as the classic Iliad chimera couldn't fly (defeated with the aid of Pegasus).

 

The ancients: Modding beasts since Antiquity.

[Dilvish the Deliverer]

Funny that this came up.  I just fought one yesterday in Adventure League.  I didn't end up lasting that long (frenzied barbarians with Great Weapon Mastery fish out obscene amounts of damage).  Evidently they no longer have serpent tails in 5th ed.

[Pingo]

Freaky chimeras have been around for a long time.  This one looks Germanic, sixteenth century (could be seventeenth maybe).

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Pingo

[TheAuldGrump]

4 hours ago, Pingo said:

 

 

I am not privy to anyone's thought processes in this, although I am by profession an artist-illustrator.

 

On a guess, I would hazard that the earlier Dungeons and Dragons artists did not have the skills to match their imaginations, and the later ones did.

 

I've got no problems with the mutations of the creature.  They're interesting perspectives and probably help players visualize the world.

 

I do note with some interest that the ancient Greek representation of the Chimera has a female body.

The word Chimera means 'she goat'.

 

The original chimera were female, but things get changed around over the centuries - and that is even before we get into Pliny the Elder, whose attempts to describe real world creatures led to an entire menagerie of fantastic beasts....

 

The Auld Grump

[TheAuldGrump]

While I was expecting to wrap up the current Pathfinder campaign last night, it looks like we still have about two sessions to go - it comes down to my expecting them to remember The King Under The Wood or even thinking to ask the fey touched Scary, Scary Spider Elves - instead they were intent on searching for the gate instead of asking questions - I literally had to have the King show up and ask them what they were doing in His woods. (In my head, the King is played by BRIAN BLESSED....)

 

So, about a night and a half of play time behind schedule.

 

***

Unconnected, I look at the 'Dungeon Debris' in the Terrain Crates Kickstarter, and I don't think 'debris' - I think 'barricades' - which would have been bloody useful for the Curse of the Crimson Throne Pathfinder game I am running once this campaign wraps.

 

One of the big differences between 3.X/Pathfinder and previous editions - campaigns seem to be more solid on when they end, as the story being told is finished.

 

The Auld Grump - more so in Pathfinder, where they are so tied to Adventure Paths - a form that I borrowed for the current campaign.

[Dr.Bedlam]

4 hours ago, TheAuldGrump said:

The word Chimera means 'she goat'.

 

The original chimera were female, but things get changed around over the centuries - and that is even before we get into Pliny the Elder, whose attempts to describe real world creatures led to an entire menagerie of fantastic beasts....

 

The Auld Grump

 

And leave us not forget Herotodus, who described such things and people that modern historians are STILL trying to figure out if he was a genuine historian or just a big Greek troll. In the modern sense, that is.

It's worth noting that some of these critters and paradigms are evolving even as we speak. The "gorgon" I read about in the saga of Perseus vs. the Medusa as a kid bears no resemblance to what D&D calls a gorgon, nor does "Clash Of The Titans," either version, bear a lot of resemblance to the source material. Tolkein's orcs have already shattered into a dozen different orc paradigms in three times that many forms of entertainment, ranging from D&D to Warhammer to Skyrim to World of Warcraft. Hell, even D&D has two or three different KINDS of orc, starting with pig faced and ending with gray beast folk. And don't get me started on what a goblin should look like.

They started out as mere public domain concepts based on folklore and mythology. Now, seems like every year, new versions and new paradigms spring up...

[TheAuldGrump]

6 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

 

And leave us not forget Herotodus, who described such things and people that modern historians are STILL trying to figure out if he was a genuine historian or just a big Greek troll. In the modern sense, that is.

It's worth noting that some of these critters and paradigms are evolving even as we speak. The "gorgon" I read about in the saga of Perseus vs. the Medusa as a kid bears no resemblance to what D&D calls a gorgon, nor does "Clash Of The Titans," either version, bear a lot of resemblance to the source material. Tolkein's orcs have already shattered into a dozen different orc paradigms in three times that many forms of entertainment, ranging from D&D to Warhammer to Skyrim to World of Warcraft. Hell, even D&D has two or three different KINDS of orc, starting with pig faced and ending with gray beast folk. And don't get me started on what a goblin should look like.

They started out as mere public domain concepts based on folklore and mythology. Now, seems like every year, new versions and new paradigms spring up...

How about Procopius -I love the Secret History - going so far as to play Procopious in a Vampire LARP. (No one getting the joke - even as he was writing The Secret History of the Secret World....) Downright raunchy, that was!

 

As for 'orc' - the term originally applied to sea monsters - and had a whole lot of nothing to do with Tolkien's orcs. (Roland did battle with one.)

 

The Auld Grump

[BlazingTornado]

8 hours ago, Pingo said:

Another possibility is that an early idiosyncratic official D&D version by one artist (looks like Jim Holloway's penwork to me, but I could be wrong) influenced all later artists, who basically copied that design but with their own artistic styles.

I don't think so, the AD&D Monster Manual describes it as flying, having all those heads, having a very much dragon head, in red, with red dragon wings, etc.

 

5 hours ago, Pingo said:

Freaky chimeras have been around for a long time.  This one looks Germanic, sixteenth century (could be seventeenth maybe).

Sweet jumping gyroscopes that is freaky as balls.

 

36 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

It's worth noting that some of these critters and paradigms are evolving even as we speak. The "gorgon" I read about in the saga of Perseus vs. the Medusa as a kid bears no resemblance to what D&D calls a gorgon, nor does "Clash Of The Titans," either version, bear a lot of resemblance to the source material.

Yeah in my game I always intended to use the name "gorgon" to refer to the Medusa species and giving the brass bull a different name...

But when they encountered the Medusa in the Keep on the Borderlands module as I was describing it to the bard who rolled the success, she immediately went "GUYS IT'S A GORGON!" and so canonicity was introduced without my needing to force it.

(as for Clash of the Titans, aside from going with the snake lower body it was accurate to the myth, Medusa having been turned monstrous in appearance by Athena)

 

But I'm an old schooler. The manticore is a favorite from childhood and for so long I never saw them depicted with wings, not in the Dark World board game, not in the old Masters of the Universe minicomic, not in the Monsters in my Pocket toyline... So to me they're wingless (as they are depicted in all the old art stuffs). Which is good because when the party runs into em in White Plume Mountain I won't have to say "Oh their wings are clipped".

 

45 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

Tolkein's orcs have already shattered into a dozen different orc paradigms in three times that many forms of entertainment, ranging from D&D to Warhammer to Skyrim to World of Warcraft. Hell, even D&D has two or three different KINDS of orc, starting with pig faced and ending with gray beast folk. And don't get me started on what a goblin should look like.

Tolkien himself played fast and loose with mythology, orcs and goblins being interchangeable terms for him.

But in my campaign world there's a justification for all these varying appearances of Orc, while they're all typically somewhat hunched, powerfully-built humanoids, the degree of porcineness of their features and their overall size varies depending on their heritage, as human, ogre and other bloodlines get mixed in. I can't pick an orc style and stick with it, they all have their appeal. Even the Gamorrean Guard look.

[Dr.Bedlam]

I still remember getting hooked on D&D back in the eighth grade... I'd bought a Holmes Basic boxed set... and agonizing at some length about what orcs and goblins LOOKED like. Pig faced worked fine with me, until I read LOTR and thought, "Well, those guys don't seem terribly pig faced." And don't get me started on goblins. NOWadays, all you have to do is lookit Google Image for a bazillion examples, but back then?

Hell, orcs and goblins have evolved nine ways from Sunday JUST SINCE I WAS IN EIGHTH GRADE!

[etherial]

10 hours ago, Pingo said:

Freaky chimeras have been around for a long time.  This one looks Germanic, sixteenth century (could be seventeenth maybe).

 

Do you think the Lion Head is more exasperated at the Goat Head or at the Serpent Head?

[Unruly]

So our game just turned into a bit of a Monty Haul. We threw a minor wrench into the DM's plans by deciding to loot and clear a path through the houses in an undead infested city rather than just making our way through the streets to where we were supposed to go and ignoring everything along the way. So he just started rolling both random encounters and random treasure for the houses. We've come away with a cloak of protection, wings of flying, and a belt of cloud giant strength, as well as what I'm pretty certain is a bottle of air though we haven't identified it yet. At level 6. This is in addition to all of us having +1 weapons, a bag of holding with the additional ability to preserve things, and a handy haversack.

 

However, my character rolled badly on some saves and is currently cursed by Vargouille's Kiss as well as being hounded by a Night Hag's Nightmare Haunting. So I need to find a cleric ASAP, because no one in our party has Remove Curse, though I can clear myself of the Night Hag by casting Protection from Evil on myself before sleeping.

 

But the session ended with us outside the safe part of the city, at sundown, with a small horde of generic undead behind us and 2 possible vampires, or at least vampire spawn, in front of us.

 

We don't resume for 2 weeks, but I'm looking forward to it. If we survive the fight, my character may find his head ripping itself free from his neck and attempting to eat his sleeping friends...

[Gargs]

Heh, my favorite Monty Haul moment was when our Shadowrun (wrong subforum I know ;) ) managed to get paid twice for the same run.  And we were paid well both times.  :)

[BlazingTornado]

I don't have a favorite Monty Haul moment.

When I did it to my players in my first group some of em took it for granted and acted like entitled turds.

 

When I had a DM do it it was just terrible nonsensical and the magical items rarely ever had a use and to make matters worse he had a DMPC with all the better swag.

There was seriously a point where he went "Oh wait I can't wear by robe of useful items and this other thing at the same time!", proceeded to tear off the useful patches and hand the rest of the robe to another of us. I think me.

Another time when my ranger reached 4th level and he took dual wielder he went to the store to find some more unique weapons than the two handaxes he was using up to that point... Only to find no flails or normal rapiers, but here's a flametongue! And also there's a beam-shooting rapier that I can't have... but then his DMPC runs in and is like "Gimme that rapier person I have a personal history with which always leads to massive expodumps and the DM talking to himsef a lot!" and the shopkeep is like "FINE! Go away now!", so my character now has a flametongue and a homebrewed "fear blade" at fourth level. Also dragon scale mail from harvesting a wyvern's scales because that's how that works.

Oh yeah and also the Apparatus of Kwalish. Which every player proceeded to play a game of "NOT IT!" with whenever time came to travel and two people had to drive it. And the snake that eats metals and poops gold, which he kept depowering as he realized just how much bling it was producing.

That was a terrible game.