Jump to content

Vytau

Force Organization Idea / Suggestion / Conversation

Recommended Posts

I was looking over my collection of fabulous CAV models yesterday, and I had a thought regarding force organization (though the trigger was in fact reading CAVBoss's update in which he specifically called the Dervish an "attack" role CAV, but that's kind of beside the point):  

I noticed after looking over my Ritterlich CAVs that I have a radically disproportionate number of recon and fire support CAVs, making it rather difficult to build a viable force within the force org rules.  In fact, without a house rule, I have no variety in my core force - it's always rhino + cataphract + something else.  If I don't WANT to take rhinos, I have to get my butt down to my FLGS or over to Reapermini.com to order more Cataphracts.  

 

Furthermore, I've noticed after quite a few test games that all my forces are sort of ossifying around a core of tried-and-true attack CAVs with maybe an experimental recon or fire support or flight section.

 

My thought, then, is:  what if forces were deployed around different role types instead of attack?  That is, what if I decided I wanted to play a "Fire Support Company" versus a "Recon" company - the rule being that I have to have more squads with the role of fire support than any other role?  

Lest this sound like an attempt to build cheesy boomy-shooty armies, please know I am tipping my hat to CAV's overall sense of balance - if I were to field an army of Tiamat's, I have little doubt I'd wind up pounded in to paste as soon as my opponent got within range! 

 

For a loose example:  I decide I want to run a recon company consisting of four squadrons - this simply means that two of those squadrons must be Type = Recon instead of the usual limitation in which two squadrons must bey Type = Attack.  

This even has some fluff potential, I think, with key factions preferring their own TOEs:   Rach would be attack, of course, but Terrans might be flight or artillery; Malvernis might be Infantry; Adon might be Recon. 

Just a thought I wanted to share with the group to see what happens.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think many people would complain if you wanted to try out all fire support or recon.  There are inherit weaknesses in overspecialization, as you pointed out.  For example, rockets can't target aircraft so a tiamat-heavy force is going to have a problem with them.

 

If I understand force creation correctly, to a certain point you already can design a force this way:  Chose a specialist squad (primary), and a fire support squad (secondary).  Use the specialist squad to take more fire support models.  With how expensive Ritter fire support CAVs are, it's pretty easy to make 5000 points right there with nothing else.

Edited by Jeneki
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think many people would complain if you wanted to try out all fire support or recon.  There are inherit weaknesses in overspecialization, as you pointed out.  For example, rockets can't target aircraft so a tiamat-heavy force is going to have a problem with them.

 

If I understand force creation correctly, to a certain point you already can design a force this way:  Chose a specialist squad (primary), and a fire support squad (secondary).  Use the specialist squad to take more fire support models.  With how expensive Ritter fire support CAVs are, it's pretty easy to make 5000 points right there with nothing else.

It's possible I'm pitching a solution in need of a problem, though I'm kind of thinking:  what if I wanted to run a squad of Tiamats, a squad of Silverbacks, and then a squad of Pumas to spot?  It's characterful, and not cheesy, but also technically not legal.  

 

And I totally understand the desire to ground a force realistically - like, the navy doesn't have 2000 aircraft carriers and a bunch of zodiacs...but my counter to that is that CAV doesn't revolve around army-level tactics, but more like platoon-level.  

 

Mostly what I'm thinking about is wiggle room for unconventional force orgs - like if I want to swamp an enemy with cougars and pumas (to stick with my Ritterlich theme).  I know that me and my group can pretty much do what we want in the comfort of our own basements, so again, maybe I'm just complaining about nothing.   Sometimes I just get the sense that some of the rules are written in response to some very specific issues in play testing that I'm not sure I'm worried about.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like what you really want is the CAV 2 independent doctrine which allowed you to build a force with any number of specialist sections--perhaps your group could make use of that in place of a usual faction doctrine.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What you really want is the CAV 2 independent doctrine which allowed you to build a force with any number of specialist sections--perhaps your group could make use of that in place of a usual faction doctrine.

 

THAT'S what I'm getting at, I think! 

 

Sort of redoubles my need for data cards independent of Force Manager...something to put my brain on, I suppose. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Either that or there wasn't a sufficient selection of core models in the KS for conversion/creation in Bones.

 

 

Well there's certainly *that* - though of course that will be remedied in May (-ish) of 2017!  

 

Still, after sleeping on it, I still think I'd like to see more freedom in the force org.  Not necessarily the old "anything goes" of CAV 1, but at least the opportunity to take weird specialist armies out.  

 

My work-around is to take one expandable 52-point light infantry squad for every secondary squad I want to take.  That's only necessary for larger forces - in a tight little 3000 point game, I can take a specialist squad and a secondary.  I'll run with that for a while and see how it goes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a tough one.  Fire support can unbalance the game quickly (unless you race in under their ranges or can drop in right in their face.)  All fire support forces would quickly tear anyone that wasn't ready for them apart.  Of course then does the force building then switch to all drop armies to counter all fire support forces?  And is it good for the game?

 

I think the need of additional attack role units is a big thing for this.  Once may hits, Ritter gets their Tigers and Sabertooths (and Dervish) and uh, well, i'm drawing a blank on what else besides Rhino's and Cataphracts :D

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a though or two:

The force group selection "rules" were put in place for two reasons...

1. To try and make a player think out side the "box" and put a force group together that may not appeal to their usual way of playing.

2. Tournaments: Down the road we will be releasing a tourney system and we need everyone working from the same page.

That's were the Bulky restriction came into as well as part of squad creation, to avoid the Super CAV heavy squads. In hindsight I see that the Threat Value points allotted for a game does the same thing, hence why I have removed it (this will all be "official" as of the Dec 9th Update).

 

As we push out new things we will open up more variations and such as you have commented here. Once we get the faction tactical briefings out, these will add new doctrines and such to each faction beyond the bare bones versions we put in the base rule book. Keep the ideas coming!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to point out that when Cav II comes out it will be a lot more than rhinos and cataphract. Tigers are scary tough, and if you got them, sabertooth and even Cheetahs have their place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2. Tournaments: Down the road we will be releasing a tourney system and we need everyone working from the same page.

That's were the Bulky restriction came into as well as part of squad creation, to avoid the Super CAV heavy squads. In hindsight I see that the Threat Value points allotted for a game does the same thing, hence why I have removed it (this will all be "official" as of the Dec 9th Update).

On the topic of the Bulky restriction, and dispite my lack of experience eith CAV in any version, I thought the same with respect to the TV. While building squads you very quickly ate up your allotted points if you fucused on superheavies..

Edited by Maredudd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Pegazus
      Yes, a 2020 ReaperCon WIP! And a massive undertaking at that. I'm trying very hard not to nerd out and put this whole project into, er, Project. There's just so many pieces to keep track of, that maybe I'll just use this first post to keep track of things.
       
      Some background stuff, starting with a quote from the "Paint a giant robot! Group WIP" where I wrote some of what's planned:
       
      You can read the rest of that post here: Paint a giant robot post and a second one to see where I'm going with this: PLA print post in same topic
       
      Biggest takeaway is that, while useful, my PLA printer can only do so much. I have a resin printer backed on Kickstarter, but considering it's now 3 years late, I don't think I should hold my breath on it ever showing up. Especially when I can get a new Elegoo Mars resin printer with more capability for relatively cheap (<$300). The PLA machine was bought with both hobby and household goals in mind, and it's served well. But the resolution just ain't there! More on that down the posts.
       
      I also had the chance to gain some experience on  paper plants at ReaperCon (Main post for that in the Terrain section post here: Vellum Paper Plants - Alien Jungle (WIP)
       
      Basically, I have the scrap booking machine to make my own alien plants:
       
      Which now leads me to this WIP. This is going to tie all those pieces together. The robot WIP will still be to get a good camo scheme, but that print job is not going to be used for the final diorama. Instead, that will be the resin printer's job. So, let's break down the WIP work that I can see so far, and will be edited later to add things and mark completions.
       
      Tasks to be completed:
       
      Figures Needed
      Wight (being pulled down backwards, caught by hidden lines) Gremlin Unit 01 (stole a supply crate and ran; actually just bait to get the larger CAV to follow) Gremlin Units 02 and 03 (trip line pair, successfully snagging Wight across the chest) Gremlin Units 04 and 05 (trip line pair, successful across another part of the chest) Gremlin Unit 06 (burner unit, cut Wight's left gun in two) Gremlin Units 07 and 08 (trap door unit, hiding entrance to jungle path with camo doors strapped to them) Gremlin Units 09 and 10 (trip line pair, successful across right thigh) Gremlin Units 11 and 12 (trip line pair, broken cable across chest, possibly falling over from sudden jolt) Gremlin Unit 13 (ECM unit, some large radar dish looking thing) Gremlin Units 14, 15 and 16 (cargo units, loaded up with stolen supplies and headed out) Gremlin Units 17, 18, 19, and 20 (gun units) Gremlin Units 21, 22, and 23 (missile units) Gremlin Unit 24 (large gun unit) Gremlin Unit 25 and 26 (junked units; scavenged for parts?) Gremlin Unit 27 (2nd style missile unit) Gremlin Unit 28 (personnel carrier unit)  
      Wight Conversion
      Right Leg: cut from pelvis; reposition Feet: cut off both feet and swap positions since the tread is only on one foot Base: cut away from right foot, possibly keeping full base around left foot Left arm (maybe): cut gun into two pieces, having one falling to the ground after being cut by a heat lance/chainsaw rope  
      Details to be included
      Camo doors at front leaving marks on the dirt path, but hiding the ambush from the main trail Pieces of old broken larger CAV units around Wight gun cut in two, maybe showing inner details. May have to 3D print an add-on piece Dust being kicked up by the stolen crate (going to try using dyed cotton) IN WORK One cable snapping dynamically, with several bends and twists (superglue on thread?) Multiple vehicle tracks around camp Campfire and tents for people A latrine Other camp details (laundry, chairs, sports equipment, bored carvings, etc)  
      Jungle Plants (V=Vellum cuts, B=bought, S=Sculpted, F=Found, P=Printed)
      Large lotus flower like plants, but dry land and maybe odd colors with a large conifer cone growing from the middle (V) Jester hat plant (balls on stems around a central point) (V) COMPLETED Spiky yucca like plant (V) Jagged leaf plant (V) Tentacle plant (V) Tripod trees (three spoke trunks) (V) Large palm fronds (S) Coral like trees (P) Horn tree (lots of horn shaped leaves from a central trunk) (P, V) Ball vine (like ivy but with odd leaf shapes) (V) Cabbage-like jungle plants with large wrinkled leaves (V) Fuzzy vines (thin wire coated with static grass) (S) Anything I can buy from N/HO scale train setups and painted alien-ish (B) Reaper figures that can be clipped and painted to be plants (B) Odd trees with strange leaf shapes (onion shaped) (V) IN WORK Random grass-like jungle plants (V) IN WORK Stem ends from mandarin oranges (seriously, pull one off and look at it, stem towards the ground) (F) Anything and everything else (VBSFP)  
      Base mounting system
      Design and print modular tiles with bristles on top (basically, Bristle Block toys) Allows mounting of all the above jungle plants Fill in around plants with thinned plaster via a syringe to create the ground surfaces
    • By Adrift
      Terezinya was painted up to be a vampire character in my dnd game, the rest are fairly self explanatory. 
       
      The translucent green Bones were given a coating of Grass Green India Ink and then had details highlighted out. They're retained their translucent quality while having better detail visibility. 







    • By WhiteWulfe
      Finally sort of cleaned up my desk, so there's actually room to work again... Not quite enough room for hubby to work on his side yet, but we'll get there soon. ish. TM. 
       
       
      Tentatively calling them the "Fiendish Flying Foxes" or something to that effect, but not fully certain yet hence the title not being as... fluffy as they usually are for me.  Kind of want to sneak "fire" in there somewhere too (Fierce, Fiery, Flying Foxes sort of rolls off the tongue), but haven't quite figured that out just yet.   ...And yes, I like alliteration, for some strange reason.
       
      Anyways!  Been slowly collecting various CAVs, and since the race I like the fluff of the most currently isn't really available (at least until September-ish, aka Malvernis in the 3rd kickstarter) I figured I'd start with a Ritterlich group!  While I do have the rulebook, I haven't really read it yet but it's on the to-do "eventually" list....  So I aimed to go with at least 2 of what I liked, and 4 of what I really liked.  Seems to work at least for basics out of the gate anyways...  Thanks to a package going missing for over two months (and being reshipped due to such), I wound up with a few more than originally planned in some areas ^_^;;;;  
       
      So, just what do the foxes have, at least so far?
       
      Attack: 2x 72231 Cataphract, 4x 72050 Firedrake, 4x 72267 Rhino II, 4x 72283 Sabertooth, 4x 72273 Tiger, 2x 72278 Wolverine
      Fire Support: 6x 72282 Cheetah, 2x 72230 Silverback, 2x 72201 Tiamat
      Recon: 2x 72208 Cougar
       
      Extras as why not: 6x 72284 Enforcer (came as freebies, so maybe spoils of war? :P)
       
      Most are still in blister packs, but I do have five of them on the desk so far.....


      ^My first Cougar....  Who will also be the first, uhm... subject for my Vallejo terrain paste...

      ^Initial layout for the bases for my Cataphracts!

      ^My two Silverbacks, although I suspect more will see the table at some point because I apparently love missiles.
       
       
      Why the 40mm circular bases?  Uhm, well...  It's partially because I prefer circular ones, partially because they're more stable on 40mm bases, and also because there's more room to do basing stuff with ^_^;;;;;;
    • By ryc03
      Haven't post anything here for so long...
       
      I'm not really following any color scheme here, since I am not familiar with the lore of CAV at all (I'm more interested in the game).
       
      Also I wish I learnt a bit more about painting technique for glowing effect before painting the windows...
       
       
       
       
        
       
       
       

       

       

       

       

       
       
    • By Adrift
      Attached are photos of a slew of different miniatures and projects I've been working on in 2019. 
       
      The Battleguard Golem is clearly a Warforged Paladin in my mind as was painted accordingly; he's mounted onto a Frontline Games base. The Jungle Titan is on the base of a Reaper Dragon I gave my son as a toy previously. The Galladoria Games entrances are both attached to Frontline Games Stones Dungeon tiles. The Terratiles are from a Kickstarter that started fulfilling last month; they were a ReaperCon vendor in 2017 and make good stuff! On the CAV Thunderbird and Raptor, I wanted to simulate some lights; not as much love for the Kahn.  The Thunderbird was missing a shoulder mount so I subbed in a axehead from a long-age discarded figure. The Iron Golem has inspired a monster in my DND world called a Forgeblast Iron Golem and I wanted to simulate discoloration of the iron as though it is being superheated from within; I also wanted it to look as though heat was trying to escape from a few plate patches. Khai the Huntress from Bombshell is on a metal Reaper skulls base; I painted three of the skulls with a glowing green eye to add more interest.   
      Like everyone else, just trying to be creative, get better and have fun. 




















  • Who's Online   52 Members, 2 Anonymous, 226 Guests (See full list)

×