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Vytau

Force Organization Idea / Suggestion / Conversation

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I was looking over my collection of fabulous CAV models yesterday, and I had a thought regarding force organization (though the trigger was in fact reading CAVBoss's update in which he specifically called the Dervish an "attack" role CAV, but that's kind of beside the point):  

I noticed after looking over my Ritterlich CAVs that I have a radically disproportionate number of recon and fire support CAVs, making it rather difficult to build a viable force within the force org rules.  In fact, without a house rule, I have no variety in my core force - it's always rhino + cataphract + something else.  If I don't WANT to take rhinos, I have to get my butt down to my FLGS or over to Reapermini.com to order more Cataphracts.  

 

Furthermore, I've noticed after quite a few test games that all my forces are sort of ossifying around a core of tried-and-true attack CAVs with maybe an experimental recon or fire support or flight section.

 

My thought, then, is:  what if forces were deployed around different role types instead of attack?  That is, what if I decided I wanted to play a "Fire Support Company" versus a "Recon" company - the rule being that I have to have more squads with the role of fire support than any other role?  

Lest this sound like an attempt to build cheesy boomy-shooty armies, please know I am tipping my hat to CAV's overall sense of balance - if I were to field an army of Tiamat's, I have little doubt I'd wind up pounded in to paste as soon as my opponent got within range! 

 

For a loose example:  I decide I want to run a recon company consisting of four squadrons - this simply means that two of those squadrons must be Type = Recon instead of the usual limitation in which two squadrons must bey Type = Attack.  

This even has some fluff potential, I think, with key factions preferring their own TOEs:   Rach would be attack, of course, but Terrans might be flight or artillery; Malvernis might be Infantry; Adon might be Recon. 

Just a thought I wanted to share with the group to see what happens.  

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I don't think many people would complain if you wanted to try out all fire support or recon.  There are inherit weaknesses in overspecialization, as you pointed out.  For example, rockets can't target aircraft so a tiamat-heavy force is going to have a problem with them.

 

If I understand force creation correctly, to a certain point you already can design a force this way:  Chose a specialist squad (primary), and a fire support squad (secondary).  Use the specialist squad to take more fire support models.  With how expensive Ritter fire support CAVs are, it's pretty easy to make 5000 points right there with nothing else.

Edited by Jeneki
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I don't think many people would complain if you wanted to try out all fire support or recon.  There are inherit weaknesses in overspecialization, as you pointed out.  For example, rockets can't target aircraft so a tiamat-heavy force is going to have a problem with them.

 

If I understand force creation correctly, to a certain point you already can design a force this way:  Chose a specialist squad (primary), and a fire support squad (secondary).  Use the specialist squad to take more fire support models.  With how expensive Ritter fire support CAVs are, it's pretty easy to make 5000 points right there with nothing else.

It's possible I'm pitching a solution in need of a problem, though I'm kind of thinking:  what if I wanted to run a squad of Tiamats, a squad of Silverbacks, and then a squad of Pumas to spot?  It's characterful, and not cheesy, but also technically not legal.  

 

And I totally understand the desire to ground a force realistically - like, the navy doesn't have 2000 aircraft carriers and a bunch of zodiacs...but my counter to that is that CAV doesn't revolve around army-level tactics, but more like platoon-level.  

 

Mostly what I'm thinking about is wiggle room for unconventional force orgs - like if I want to swamp an enemy with cougars and pumas (to stick with my Ritterlich theme).  I know that me and my group can pretty much do what we want in the comfort of our own basements, so again, maybe I'm just complaining about nothing.   Sometimes I just get the sense that some of the rules are written in response to some very specific issues in play testing that I'm not sure I'm worried about.  

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Sounds like what you really want is the CAV 2 independent doctrine which allowed you to build a force with any number of specialist sections--perhaps your group could make use of that in place of a usual faction doctrine.

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What you really want is the CAV 2 independent doctrine which allowed you to build a force with any number of specialist sections--perhaps your group could make use of that in place of a usual faction doctrine.

 

THAT'S what I'm getting at, I think! 

 

Sort of redoubles my need for data cards independent of Force Manager...something to put my brain on, I suppose. 

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Either that or there wasn't a sufficient selection of core models in the KS for conversion/creation in Bones.

 

 

Well there's certainly *that* - though of course that will be remedied in May (-ish) of 2017!  

 

Still, after sleeping on it, I still think I'd like to see more freedom in the force org.  Not necessarily the old "anything goes" of CAV 1, but at least the opportunity to take weird specialist armies out.  

 

My work-around is to take one expandable 52-point light infantry squad for every secondary squad I want to take.  That's only necessary for larger forces - in a tight little 3000 point game, I can take a specialist squad and a secondary.  I'll run with that for a while and see how it goes. 

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It's a tough one.  Fire support can unbalance the game quickly (unless you race in under their ranges or can drop in right in their face.)  All fire support forces would quickly tear anyone that wasn't ready for them apart.  Of course then does the force building then switch to all drop armies to counter all fire support forces?  And is it good for the game?

 

I think the need of additional attack role units is a big thing for this.  Once may hits, Ritter gets their Tigers and Sabertooths (and Dervish) and uh, well, i'm drawing a blank on what else besides Rhino's and Cataphracts :D

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Just a though or two:

The force group selection "rules" were put in place for two reasons...

1. To try and make a player think out side the "box" and put a force group together that may not appeal to their usual way of playing.

2. Tournaments: Down the road we will be releasing a tourney system and we need everyone working from the same page.

That's were the Bulky restriction came into as well as part of squad creation, to avoid the Super CAV heavy squads. In hindsight I see that the Threat Value points allotted for a game does the same thing, hence why I have removed it (this will all be "official" as of the Dec 9th Update).

 

As we push out new things we will open up more variations and such as you have commented here. Once we get the faction tactical briefings out, these will add new doctrines and such to each faction beyond the bare bones versions we put in the base rule book. Keep the ideas coming!

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I'd like to point out that when Cav II comes out it will be a lot more than rhinos and cataphract. Tigers are scary tough, and if you got them, sabertooth and even Cheetahs have their place.

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2. Tournaments: Down the road we will be releasing a tourney system and we need everyone working from the same page.

That's were the Bulky restriction came into as well as part of squad creation, to avoid the Super CAV heavy squads. In hindsight I see that the Threat Value points allotted for a game does the same thing, hence why I have removed it (this will all be "official" as of the Dec 9th Update).

On the topic of the Bulky restriction, and dispite my lack of experience eith CAV in any version, I thought the same with respect to the TV. While building squads you very quickly ate up your allotted points if you fucused on superheavies..

Edited by Maredudd

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