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Dwarven Forge KS5 Back to the dungeon


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5 hours ago, sigmaone said:

 

This is absolutely true, but I'm still hoping we can get the backer numbers up there too... right now, I think it's averaging over $1000 per backer. I'm hoping this one runs a little more like KS 1, where as people see what they can get, they buy in.  I don't think we'll ever match the value of KS  1 because I'm thinking that DF actually under-priced those pieces and nearly got themselves into trouble giving too much away. But I do think for new backers, especially in the U.S. who don't have to pay shipping, the add-ons provide a nice point of entry.   

 

It's a little weird; I'm excited for the KS and I want it to do well, so I want to share news and bring new eyes to see it. But I don't think the stretch goals add super value, so in this KS they aren't really motivating me to push it. I think Reaper's KS's generally have much more value-added in the stretch goals.  With DF, you get a small (relative to pledge level) selection of nice extra things if the KS does well. It's cool stuff, and I want it; but it's not a motivator.

 

DF looks to be going in the route of "more money from fewer people", which I don't think is a good long-term strategy. (I'm sorta concerned that this is happening with the Reaper Bones KS as well.) I think CMON has it right that every KS is an opportunity for a new gamer (that's used to dropping $120+, that is) can jump in. I also think DF is no longer participating in the SG "dog and pony show", when they make available on Day One (almost) everything they'll give away, rather than build up the hype machine (and move around the gaps in the goals) like CMON does. Dunno how good of a marketing scheme this is. CROM is doing this as well. DF, however, has a wealthy enough customer base that they don't need to do this, and certainly aren't burning through KS like CMON is.

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There are pro's and con's to slowing adding the Add-ons. 

 

Pro:

It helps overcome the doldrums

It keeps adding something fresh and new each day

 

Con:

I'm more likely to go in for the add-on's so I'm pretty much waiting till the end to decide what I want.

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56 minutes ago, ced1106 said:

 

DF looks to be going in the route of "more money from fewer people", which I don't think is a good long-term strategy.

 

The KS is shaping up that way so far, but it's certainly nothing new. I have to say that KS 3 and KS 4 kind of really pushed that direction a lot more. Here you can pick from among a number of little things for only a few hundred dollars. The castles in particular, it really felt to get the theme you had to buy in big. I think part of it is just that DF "collects" people who can afford to really make massive buys.... I mean 124 people have pledged at the $3,600 level.  (It's not too surprising only about 34 people have pledged at the cheaper unpainted DoD! It's worth $1,000 just to have all that Dwarvenite painted.)  Ignoring those pledges leaves the average at about $705 per, amongst 927 people.  

 

We'll see if more casual backers are tempted to jump in as all the add-ons become available. But honestly, Dwarven Forge has never tended to attract casual rpg players or enthusiasts. It never really did, and KS 1 was kind of a fluke with its oh-too-tempting prices. 

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1 hour ago, ced1106 said:

 

DF looks to be going in the route of "more money from fewer people", which I don't think is a good long-term strategy. (I'm sorta concerned that this is happening with the Reaper Bones KS as well.)

1

Ya, and I don't see a problem with either strategy. A company can make money selling inexpensive stuff to a lot of people (Walmart), or expensive stuff to a few people (Ferrari). Who is making this type of terrain cheaper and better?  Let's face it this is a niche product for a niche audience.  I do believe they are selling this stuff as cheap as they can.  The nice thing about these encounter based sets is that you can get something like Level 2 for $255 unpainted or $370 painted and have a nice starter setup, and then you can buy additional add-ons from the DF store for between $30 and $200 a pop in the future and slowly build up a nice big dungeon.  I am currently in at Level 2 unpainted and then I am going to get some add-ons.  Sure I wish I could get the $3600 set but that is not an amount I would feel comfortable spending, but I am glad there are "whales" that can help fund this stuff for all of us.  Stefan has also said that unfortunately, the factory that they use keeps raising its prices.  

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Yep. Interestingly, KS 1's blurb was "to bring revolutionary miniature terrain to everyone in the tabletop gaming world," perhaps DF doesn't need to do that anymore. KS5's description is "The ultimate fully modular terrain for Dungeons & Dragons, available fully hand painted. Amazing detail, variety and durability." Note that "price" is missing...!

 

Here are the numbers for the previous KS. You can see the decline. KS V is doing much better. 

KS1: 5398 backers : $1.9M
KS2: 3950 backers : $2.1M
KS3: 2719 backers : $2.4M
KS4: 1688 backers : $1.78M

 

Not that I'm going to spend anything like $3600 but with with Reaper (and Doomtown) coming up, I'm fine with waiting for something inexpensive. Although dropping $120+ on a CMON game isn't exactly cheap, either! ^_^

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47 minutes ago, sigmaone said:

We'll see if more casual backers are tempted to jump in as all the add-ons become available. But honestly, Dwarven Forge has never tended to attract casual rpg players or enthusiasts. It never really did, and KS 1 was kind of a fluke with its oh-too-tempting prices. 

 

Agreed.  I've long drooled over DF, but never felt like I had the money to actually take the plunge. Heck even now, looking at the people that dropped $3600 I think to myself "Dang, that's more money than I allocate for general entertainment expenses for the entire year."  So that would be like "Do I want to buy all in on DF and not do much of anything else for myself, or do I want to simply give it a try and then still be able to do other things like Bones, video games, books, etc."

 

Note, nothing wrong with people spending the dough.  Heck, if I had the money I would go nuts on this just for the wow factor at the gaming table.  I just think that this is something that your average RPG group just isn't going to buy into.

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$3600 is far more than I'd like to spend on my entire gaming hobby. Although I'm not going to admit how much I must have spent on it! :lol:

 

How long have you been around KS? While DF leads in quality, more affordable tiles will pop up now and then, maybe twice a year. Haven't seen them for awhile, though.

 

I've backed game tiles KS for around $1 per molded item:

* Maki's Modular Underground Project

* Secret Weapon Miniature's Tablescapes

* Stones Dungeon Tiles

* Acheson Creation's Dungeon Worlds

 

I skipped Lunesdargent Workshop's KS because it was a First Created project and I didn't have any need for an Egyptian-themed game tile set, but backers were *very* happy. I'll be looking at them closer for their next KS!

Edited by ced1106
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1 hour ago, ced1106 said:

Yep. Interestingly, KS 1's blurb was "to bring revolutionary miniature terrain to everyone in the tabletop gaming world," perhaps DF doesn't need to do that anymore. KS5's description is "The ultimate fully modular terrain for Dungeons & Dragons, available fully hand painted. Amazing detail, variety and durability." Note that "price" is missing...!

 

Here are the numbers for the previous KS. You can see the decline. KS V is doing much better. 

KS1: 5398 backers : $1.9M
KS2: 3950 backers : $2.1M
KS3: 2719 backers : $2.4M
KS4: 1688 backers : $1.78M

 

Not that I'm going to spend anything like $3600 but with with Reaper (and Doomtown) coming up, I'm fine with waiting for something inexpensive. Although dropping $120+ on a CMON game isn't exactly cheap, either! ^_^

The interesting thing here is that this time you can get enough to work with at around $300. I am betting less if you plan on just supplementing a previous purchase. That wasn't the case with Castles.

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True, but, as said, I've found game tile KS at $1 per piece. 

 

What I really liked about the DF KS1 pieces was that you could grab a handful and you'd find a piece you were looking for. I have enough problems sorting through miniatures -- picking through specialized dungeon pieces I don't want to do, even as setup before a game. Sure, they *look* nice, but, to agree with Garg, I don't think the extra cost adds that much to roleplaying. Particularly with specialized pieces, I found out through the D&D 2D game tiles that, while unusual pieces looked interesting, actually trying to find the right piece was a chore. If i want a room to describe information (eg. a wizard's lair vs. an orc lair), I can do it better through dungeon accessories than dungeon terrain. 

 

Personally, I don't want to spend much money on a single project, and prefer a middle ground of quantity vs. quality. While metal and resin are better than plastic, a $5 metal miniature in metal needs to be and isn't, for me, five times better than a $1 Bones or CMON one. When playing games, at some point, aesthetics stops paying off. That's why I stop painting a miniature when I hit beyond tabletop. Color and 3D is appreciated, but I'm more interested in gaming than anything that doesn't make too much difference at a tabletop distance.

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Just now, Bane Of Humanity said:

I don't own any cavern tiles so I'm eager to see the burrows which I would likely use in place of caverns. 

They seems to be a much smaller "wall" height. That might lower the cost relative to table footprint. 

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