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Star Trek: Another Modest Proposal


Dr.Bedlam
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13 hours ago, Unruly said:

Yup. Except that the plan was always to blow up the Romulan ambassador's ship. Garak knew that the Cardassian data rod would never be able to pass as legitimate, so he just didn't tell Sisko the whole plan. He knew that Sisko would never agree to it if he stated it plainly, but, by making Sisko unaware, Garak was able to give Sisko exactly what he asked for - the Romulans joining the war, and on the Federation's side rather than the Dominion's.

Yes, the episode opens and closes with Sisko confiding to his officers log before deleting it all.

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10 hours ago, Unruly said:




It made the Klingons hardcore warmongers again, but at the same time it took the whole "MY HONOR!" bullcrap up to 11 at times. Seriously, when your whole civilization constantly gets so butthurt that they'll fight each other to the death just because one guy says someone else's breath smells like week-dead gagh, and the family of whoever dies then enters into a blood feud with the victor's family where they mutually murder each other for the next hundred years, I don't see how you can maintain an empire that spans half a galaxy. Heck, I don't see how you could develop the level of technology required to travel and form that galaxy-spanning empire.




 




That kind of crap is how empires fall, not how they're born. Constant infighting and killing each other over stupid crap doesn't work like that in the long run. Yea, "survival of the fittest" and "only the strong survive" should make your empire powerful, but when everyone is killing everyone you eventually end up with too few people to do anything. And that's how the Klingon Empire acts in later TNG and DS9.






 




The internecine nature of TNG/DS9 Klingon society may be at least partially explained by the post-Khitomer peace.  If there are no external enemies to distract, feuds may intensify.  Indeed they even hint that Gowron's aggressiveness against Cardassia and subsequently the Federation was partially to give the houses something better to do than plot against each other (and him).  Once the Dominion War gets brutal the feuding dries up in a hurry.  Thus the feuding and how it is resolved is not only consistent with what we know of Klingons but also demonstrates why they are so compelled to fight and aggressively expand.  Like how if you have too many antsy knights about who get to thinking too much then you find them a crusade to get occupied with.




 




As for Klingon tech, I always assumed most of it came from the resources and labour of conquered planets.  If your choices are to be destroyed by the Klingons or help them and maybe get treated half-decent you might be inclined to honorably manufacture warp drives.  Note that Klingons have no prohibition against pre-warp contact, so for some of these civilizations even a forcible Klingon occupation might represent an incredible leap in standard of living.  Hey, you!  Want to cure disease and famine and poverty?  Swear to obey us and we will fix all your problems!  Oh - and also protect you from all these Orions and Gorn and Cardassians and Romulans who just happen to also want to enslave you and maybe give you nothing at all.




 




"Mendrik, this scary ridgeheaded man makes a compelling point.  We choose the free stuff option and not the obliterated by fire one."


I don't know why it keeps messing up my spacing.

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If you have ever read John M. Ford's excellent novel, "The Final Reflection"

The Klingon Captain states that all Klingon's are taught that there are 2 kinds of "Empires",

Komerex-the structure that grows,

Khesterex-the structure that dies...

And he states that, in his experience, this is true...

 

If you are a Trek fan, you owe it to yourself to read this book...

It is set about 30 or so years before TOS, and the main character is the Klingon Captain...

Spock, as a child, has a cameo, and McCoy is mentioned by his grandfather as being a bad needing his diapers changed....

Whatever Paramount may say about what is "canon"

The fluff on Klingons in the Starfleet Battls game is pretty good too...

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2 hours ago, knarthex said:

If you have ever read John M. Ford's excellent novel, "The Final Reflection"

The Klingon Captain states that all Klingon's are taught that there are 2 kinds of "Empires",

Komerex-the structure that grows,

Khesterex-the structure that dies...

And he states that, in his experience, this is true...

 

If you are a Trek fan, you owe it to yourself to read this book...

It is set about 30 or so years before TOS, and the main character is the Klingon Captain...

Spock, as a child, has a cameo, and McCoy is mentioned by his grandfather as being a bad needing his diapers changed....

Whatever Paramount may say about what is "canon"

The fluff on Klingons in the Starfleet Battls game is pretty good too...

 

All John M. Ford novels are excellent novels.

 

Seriously.  Read them all.

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41 minutes ago, Pingo said:

 

All John M. Ford novels are excellent novels.

 

Seriously.  Read them all.

He wrote the first 'module' for the Paranoa game from my understanding, and the word floating around was "Don't Play it!"

As it was so good that nothing would ever be as good again......

 

(His TOS novel, "How Much For Just The Planet" was a lot of fun as well...

Especially when the Klingon was putting on his TUXEDO, and deciding that the collar was to prevent garrotting attacks, the cummerbund was a warriors sash etc....

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I have no idea how true this is... but I am told:

1. John M. Ford wanted to write a novel about Klingons. He set it in the pre-TOS period, and made it about this one Klingon's journey of discovery... and how he transcends the role his society has set for him.

His editors didn't know what to do with it. It was a great novel, but it didn't have no Star Trek doodz in it. So they said, "Well, it's a great novel, but it ain't got no Star Trek doodz in it." So Ford went back and added a first and last chapter wraparound with Kirk and Spock and the gang, and stuck a chapter in the middle in which the main character plays a game with Kid Spock during a diplomatic conference. And the publishers thought this was all right, and published the book. 

Paramount's response was "From now on, all Star Trek novels have to have the TV series characters as protagonists."

2. John M. Ford was a fan of the episode "Shore Leave," and decided to write a TOS novel in which the Enterprise crew are played for suckers by the natives. For fun, we'll throw in a Klingon crew... who are also played for suckers by the natives. It was intended as a light farce, funny, comical, and suitable for what would later become known as a "musical episode." The publishers published it.

Paramount's response was "From now on, no more comedy Trek novels."

Ford quit writing Trek novels after that.

 

I muchly enjoyed the old FASA Star Trek RPG. I'd never heard of John M. Ford until I bought the Klingons supplement, which he helped to write, and was based to some extent on his version of Klingon culture, which we also see in The Final Reflection. I wound up reading the book because of the game supplement, and was very impressed; most Trek novels are pretty lightweight reading, but TFR bears repeat reading.

How Much For Just The Planet was a hoot.

The two of them are the only Trek novels I ever had that I didn't give away or unload at Half Price Books.
 

Edited by Dr.Bedlam
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6 hours ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

I have no idea how true this is... but I am told:

1. John M. Ford wanted to write a novel about Klingons. He set it in the pre-TOS period, and made it about this one Klingon's journey of discovery... and how he transcends the role his society has set for him.

His editors didn't know what to do with it. It was a great novel, but it didn't have no Star Trek doodz in it. So they said, "Well, it's a great novel, but it ain't got no Star Trek doodz in it." So Ford went back and added a first and last chapter wraparound with Kirk and Spock and the gang, and stuck a chapter in the middle in which the main character plays a game with Kid Spock during a diplomatic conference. And the publishers thought this was all right, and published the book. 

Paramount's response was "From now on, all Star Trek novels have to have the TV series characters as protagonists."

This sort of resonates with my understanding of most Star Trek TV stories.

 

The characters are only there as a framework to support sci-fi stories and occasional drama. Sometimes good, often bad. It allowed for tons of speculative "What if [specific group] were the ones who came on top of [historical event] instead of [traditionally accepted reality]". Insert some technobabble; crawl in some jefferies tubes; reverse polarity; quip about being/not being human; and voilà, a Star Trek episode!

 

Having the main characters somehow makes it "relatable".

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On 6/24/2017 at 9:38 AM, Cranky Dog said:

Regarding Star Trek, my secret wish would be for ST:TNG to reshoot some scenes from the last story "All Good Things", where Q sends Piccard's mind to his post-retirement future. We're over 20 years later after the original shoot, so all of the actors aged appropriately (and are still alive) for the episode, so everyone in those future scenes will look like their true older selves.

This would be amazing, and I'm +90% sure they'd all be up for it! Though I'm curious what they'd do about Data...

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On 6/22/2017 at 9:26 PM, Dr.Bedlam said:

So I hear they're making another Star Trek television series. Apparently, they think this one is so good, people will pay to watch it, like HBO and Game Of Thrones. I have my doubts, but I haven't seen it, so what do I know?

Star Trek has had several spinoff series of varying quality. I didn't expect to like Next Generation, but they lucked out with a combination of a cast that could do ANY durn thing (Patrick Stewart's one of the few actors I know of who can literally carry a one man show) and enough good scripts in the first two years to carry them past the bad ones (planet of the black people, anyone? How about the toga people who wanted to kill Wesley for stepping on flowers?)

By the third season, though, the show really shone, and even its detractors had to admit it was some good television. So they decided to make ANOTHER one, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. And, again, after an uneven first season, it did some mighty good episodes.

...and then they tried yet again with Star Trek Voyager... which... was less good. More uneven. I don't know what it is about TV executives thinking that people want to see people on a spaceship all lost somewhere in the universe. I don't WANT to be lost. I liked Star Trek because they KNEW where they were, and could go home ANY TIME THEY WANTED. But, no, the TV execs think I want to identify with people stuck a zillion miles from home. But I digress.

...and then they tried again with Star Trek: Enterprise. Which... well, they tried.

And now they're trying again with another prequel series. And I just don't know. This "prequel series" thing presumes I want to know what led up to Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock and everyone. 

And I was thinking about this when I saw that one episode of the original series where Captain Kirk gets shanghaiied by the glowy brains to be a gladiator. Remember that one? The glowy space brains that have tremendous cosmic power and can't think of anything to do with it except set up sporting matches and bet on the outcome? And Captain Kirk convinces them that setting everyone free and setting up a civilization would be more interesting than betting on sports?

First saw that episode when I was, I think, ten. It was good enough when I was ten. Now, I just wonder what the hell Captain Kirk was thinking, handing a civilization over to a race of glowy space brains that couldn't think of anything better to do with amazing cosmic powers than bet on how American Gladiators is going to turn out today. What kind of civilization are THESE people going to set up?

And then I thought about it: what if a Federation spaceship happens to come back some hundred years later? What kind of civilization DID they set up?

And that's when it hit me: they wanna do a new Star Trek series? Everyone I talked to agreed that Enterprise stank, all the way up until they remembered all the OLD Star Trek stuff... the Gorn, the Tholians, the Mirror Universe... all that old stuff left over from when Shatner and Nimoy were on board.

What happened to all the Thralls on the planet of the gambling-addicted space brains?
What happened to the planet of the Space Gangsters?
What happened to the planet of the Space Nazis?
What happened to the planet of the Space Romans?
What happened to the planet of the Space Children who were actually 200 years old?
What happened to the planet of the Space Indians?
What happened to the planet of the Space Hippies With The Big Pompadours who worshipped the Computer Snake Monster Cave Thing?
What happened to all the space women that Captain Kirk had, um, diplomatic relations with?

It occurred to me that Captain Kirk alone left enough weird floating around in space that a whole new Star Trek series could spend the first couple seasons just finding out what happened afterwards. Did any of these planets join the Federation afterwards? Is there a whole planet of people who look like six year old Clint Howard? More importantly, are there a zillion space babies out there who resemble William Shatner?

And lastly, is this new series going to be more interesting than finding out what the Space Hippies with the Big Pompadours did?

I want to see Kirk-era ships like out of The Starfleet Technical Manual. That would be fun. 

 

But Yes! go around and check on/clean up places Kirk visited. But I was thinking about five years after 1701A visited. 

 

The Mission to Save The People of Landru

...From The 14 Faction Civil War that broke out 15 local months after Kirk left. (Allows thinly guised commentary on the Syrian Civil War...17 factions and counting.)

 

The Evacuation of the Planet of Vaal

There was a reason Vaal was a weather control supercomputer... that Planet had killer, vicious thunderstorms; violent climate swings, which equaled an unreliable crops situation, which led to starvation; Tribal Warfare... (Allows thinly guised social commentary on assorted wretched situations in famine riddled Africa.)

 

The Fate of USS Exeter and the Plague Planet

Captain Tracey's plague ship. Kirk left a derelict ship full of the worst imaginable bio-warfare agent in standard orbit around a Plague Planet. (What if the Tholians or Klingons stole Exeter?  What if some hostile aliens harvested that virus off the planet to use as a bio-weapon against the Federation?) (Allows commentary about both WMDs and Genocide ...all those folk on the planet are carriers.)

 

**My version has a flotilla / small squadron of ships consisting of: one tug, one or two science ships, two Destroyer class, a Scout class, and a Light Cruiser command ship. The CO is a Commodore! fer once. 

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42 minutes ago, Dr.Bedlam said:

And... so far, I am not hugely impressed. Set 10 years before TOS, and their answer was "Let's change everything?"

The ships should look like less advanced, smaller ships than what Kirk had available. 

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I never really watched much TOS. I was much more of age for TNG and really enjoyed it and all that followed. 

 

To me, Discovery is pretty good. It’s darker and more gritty than the others, but I’m enjoying it. 

 

The Orville is surprisingly good, it feels more like a light-hearted Star Trek. Some good jokes and some bad, but you can tell Seth McFarlane is a big fan of Star Trek and pays homage to it. 

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36 minutes ago, TGP said:

The ships should look like less advanced, smaller ships than what Kirk had available. 

 
I'm inclined to agree. The Reboot movie had the colored tunics, and redesigned but relatable ships and props. It had a newer look, but paid enough lip service to the old that I was able to manage it. Truth is, the only part I really had trouble with was a Romulan mining ship designed to look like a gigantic explosion in the cutlery drawer.

Discovery takes place ten years EARLIER, but looks far, far more advanced. And they're going to have to go a hell of a ways to get me to forget how they completely redesigned and retconned the Klingons. It's a jarring thing, and it knocks me out of my suspension of disbelief every time one of the baldheaded new Klingons appears on screen. Particularly because they're still using the same language from the previous series.

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