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Or... Maybe it wants to be Canadian.   Cause let's face it. Who doesn't.    

You may need more evocative tags such as "dumpster fire" or "train wreck" before it is done.

Thanks, mod.     Quite a few backers thought that everything would be WAY better if they'd cancel and come back later. Overall, it got its initial bump due to the Confrontation rep

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On 5/10/2019 at 5:17 PM, odinsgrandson said:

I get the feeling you're new to this project.

The project was for plastic confrontation minis.  Only five backers got the "everything in resin" pledges (and an unknown number got individual add ons in resin)
 

Oh no, I'm aware of it - I backed for $1 specifically to watch the trainwreck I guessed it would be. 

Looks to me like they're angling to get the resins done for the limited backers so they can a) say "see, we're delivering" and b) raise more money. 

Note that I don't say "raise more money for the remainder of the project."

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well this is an interesting development:

 

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Important update regarding Confrontation Classic -- Importante mise à jour pour Confrontation Classic

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Posted by SANS-DETOURCREATOR
16 Comments31 Likes
b14f583ff44c7a0196652d40bf2789ce_origina

Greetings everyone,

You’ve been expecting news regarding the Celebration Box for months now. Many rumors have also circulated about the project, which is why we’re communicating now and will continue to do so on a regular basis in order to keep you abreast of the project’s advancement.

Sans Détour has just gone through a difficult period which we’ve come out through just fine. We’ve finished delivering the largest project of our ten years of existence: 5000 packages, 60 pallets of games, for a total of 22 tons of gaming fun! Now all of our energy is devoted to Confrontation.

The very good news is that Confrontation has continued to move forward since the beginning of the year and we’ve finalized a deployment program which we can finally present to you.

You had not missed that the original project was quite ambitious for a small company such as ours. A few wrenches in the works and a lack of experience in production raised legitimate doubts in our ability to deliver the boxes. The past six months have been dedicated to the resolution of these aspects, to ensure the feasibility of everything and selecting partners able to handle the project to its conclusion.

Here’s what we’ve decided:

  • The miniatures included in the Celebration Box will be cast in metal.
  • The Celebration Boxes already pledged for will be shipped at no additional cost.
 

Why move over to metal?

· It’s the best homage for this prestigious line. The original models were in metal and the sculpture of the original masters was made to perfectly fit that material.

· Our partner, De Tinnen Ross, is specialized in metal figures (Freebooter’s Fate, Guild Ball, The Drowned Earth). We’ve already selected, together, a metal of higher quality than the original one, and have already started production.

(You can see below pictures of the first batch of produced parts)

  • This choice allows us to start deliveries by the end of the year, as indicated in our Kickstarter.
  • The models are produced in the Netherlands. This proximity helps us keep tabs on the production process.

The consequences of moving to metal.

  •  In addition to the weight, the production cost of each figure in metal is much higher than for plastic
  •  The Celebration Box will not be available in stores.
  • We've decided against modifying the shipping fees.
  • If you’ve already pledged for a Celebration Box or a Gaming Selection, you’ll immediately benefit from the upgrade to metal.

We remind you that this is a single box containing 254 different metal miniatures, the value of which, if it was sold in stores, would be over 1200 euros ($1350).

Deployment calendar

The program agreed with DTR takes into account respect for our calendar. This point is very important for you and for us:

  • The first wave of shipping for the metal Celebration Box to backers will take place before the end of the year 2019. It will be done by geographic zone and/or by pledge order.
  • The delivery for the resin Celebration Box will also begin before the end of 2019.
  • The shipping of the resin Collector’s Choice has already started and will continue along with new orders.

Shipping will be staggered over a number of months, based on the production capacity of DTR. 

We’re all enthusiastic regarding the upcoming release of Confrontation Classic. This choice of going to metal is also a choice of passion. Even though we’ve sometimes made mistakes, thanks to your support, we’re working hard on the great return of Confrontation

Thank you to all of you. And see you soon on Aarklash!

 

 

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Interesting how they seem to just casually blow off all the previous talk and say "everything is fine" o_O 

 

While the switch to metal is interesting, that's going to be a very, very heavy box to say the least... 

 

My biggest question is how long they'll actively post updates before going silent again...  And if people actually are going to get anything at all.  That many metal minis... Would they even break even putting that many in each box at Kickstarter pricing? 

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It's really interesting that they are swapping to metal at no additional shipping cost for backers. I mean I wouldn't want to carry that game to a board game night but if ppl get everything in full thanks to this, that's great. But I can't imagine that this project was profitable. 

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26 minutes ago, aku-chan said:

I must admit though, had they gone for metal from the start, I probably would've backed it despite the other issues. 

In the few comments I read, it appears that half the backers are ok with the switch to metal, and half backed for the plastic and are not ok with this change. 
 

16 minutes ago, WhiteWulfe said:

Interesting how they seem to just casually blow off all the previous talk and say "everything is fine" o_O 

That's pretty much been their standard operating procedure from Day 1. 

 

19 minutes ago, WhiteWulfe said:

My biggest question is how long they'll actively post updates before going silent again...  And if people actually are going to get anything at all.  That many metal minis... Would they even break even putting that many in each box at Kickstarter pricing? 

personally, I think this is them a) realizing they can't fulfill the KS they promised, and b) doing something to keep people quiet. I'm predicting they'll start shipping metal, then run out of money and ask people to pay for the shipping. 

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I dont really see why people would want to back this project for metal miniatures, when you can get the exact same figures (more or less) basically for nothing, in metal, over ebay or any other trade/sell forum. People could even get the same metal figures from the sans detour trade/sell webpage before they ran out of business there. I am sure they will ship figures, only that it will be their old metal stock rebranded. :D

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1 hour ago, kristof65 said:

In the few comments I read, it appears that half the backers are ok with the switch to metal, and half backed for the plastic and are not ok with this change. 
 

That's pretty much been their standard operating procedure from Day 1. 

 

Yeah...  So... Weird to see the semi-regular silence becomes damage control cycle though. 

 

I can definitely understand why those who want plastic figures are royally annoyed though, because the whole part of the constant "it'll be high quality" messaging sold some people on it... And some prefer plastic due to weight. 

Quote

personally, I think this is them a) realizing they can't fulfill the KS they promised, and b) doing something to keep people quiet. I'm predicting they'll start shipping metal, then run out of money and ask people to pay for the shipping. 

I... My optimistic side hopes people actually get what they paid for.  I think it's mainly option b, sinve there's been a LOT of negative oh so very red flag financial behavior. 

 

If it did become the outcome you're mentioning, I suspect there will be even more outcry, because now there's "preferential treatment" going on. 

 

I am soooooo glad I didn't out money into this, although a small part of me is wishing I'd put in the $1 just to be able to watch everything go down.  I want to believe, but bankruptcies being filed alongside loss of licenses (and being sued for outstanding royalties) really makes me not optimistic about the outcome. 

 

Edit: also, if they're so proud of having pushed out a previous game, why is there no mention of WHAT it is?  Most publishers love to plug their games, especially if it will help prop up goodwill towards them... 

Edited by WhiteWulfe
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The supply of original minis on rbay or other sites is limited, and the prices are rising.  

It can also be a big pain in the ...   to find just the ones you want.

 

Now, cost...

 

Making molds for metal minis is cheap. In the order of a couplehundred €/$/£ while a mold for plastic minis costs in the thousands. 

Of course, a mold made of vulcanised rubber doesn't last as long as a mold made of steel, so the hundreds is a recurring cost.

Unfortunately, that lower mold cost won't offset the fact that white metal(with or without a lump of lead added in) is expensive.   

So my guess is that going for metal will actually make it even more costly to fulfill. 

 

Now, should they actually manage to pull it out of the hat, and fulfill completely, I will be keeping an eye out for at least some of their Wolven.

(Nope, not going to buy anything from them before all backers have goptten theirs. )

If not, I'll keep refreshing the Cadwallon website... 

 

Weight...   

250 minis of 40 grams(measured a couple of reasonable 28mm minis to get a rough idea)  is 10Kg...

Plus packaging... 

 

A similar amount of plastic minis would be what? 2Kg plus packaging?

 

The difference in shipping cost can be rather horrid unless they have a very good deal with a global shipper.

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21 minutes ago, WhiteWulfe said:

I am soooooo glad I didn't out money into this, although a small part of me is wishing I'd put in the $1 just to be able to watch everything go down.  I want to believe, but bankruptcies being filed alongside loss of licenses (and being sued for outstanding royalties) really makes me not optimistic about the outcome. 

 

Edit: also, if they're so proud of having pushed out a previous game, why is there no mention of WHAT it is?  Most publishers love to plug their games, especially if it will help prop up goodwill towards them... 

My guess is that the previous game is the Call of Cthulu expansion for which they lost the license to because they didn't pay their royalties.  The questions I have is if they worked it out with Chaosium to allow the backers to get what they paid for, or if Chaosium is getting stiffed again?   

This is the first time I've ponied up the $1 on a KS just to see where the train wreck goes.  I've gotten my money's worth in entertainment at this point, even if it turns out I'm wrong, and SD succeeds. 

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6 minutes ago, Gadgetman! said:

Making molds for metal minis is cheap. In the order of a couplehundred €/$/£ while a mold for plastic minis costs in the thousands. 

Of course, a mold made of vulcanised rubber doesn't last as long as a mold made of steel, so the hundreds is a recurring cost.

Unfortunately, that lower mold cost won't offset the fact that white metal(with or without a lump of lead added in) is expensive.   

So my guess is that going for metal will actually make it even more costly to fulfill. 

I was just looking over the numbers and pledge levels again. 

Those Celebration boxes are supposed to contain 178 unique miniatures.  So I would guess that they'll need about 200-250 molds to do all those, presuming that some of the larger models will need more than one mold.  At ~$250 a mold, that's $60-65k for molds, which is less than a fourth of the amount raised. 

There are approximately 1250 backers for those boxes. Can a single mold last long enough to run 1500 minis or so?  If so, and if they haven't spent the rest of the money, maybe that leaves enough to run the minis?  Of course, they still have the game and box to print as well. 

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The could cheap out and do party moulds (instead of say 20 copies of an archer for example, put 20 different minis in there),

 

these are less desirable as it's tricky to sell individual items from later as your often left with a build up of the less popular figures from the mould (you can remelt them but as casters charge per spin if say 1/2 of the casts get dumped your profit margins take a big hit),

 

and because if a cavity fails either right away or later as the mould wears out you've got to make a whole new mould where with a single figure mould you've got a bunch of others that are ok (again the duds can just be remelted  and if only 1 or 2 cavities are invlived the spin cost isn't effected too badly)

 

so if they want to cheap out they can certainly do that effectively (if, they don't already have a bunch of them in stock from the old Rackham casts as Grefven says)

Edited by Orlando_the_Technicoloured
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Lead-free pewter is priced from £7 to £11 per lbs according to some very quick googling.  

10Kg (11lbs) would that be at least £77(say $100 to be nice)   

And that's the metal cost only. 

 

The power to smelt the metal, setting up and removing molds from the spincast machine, the work with separating the minis and cutting off sprues, quality control, packaging for shipment from caster to Sans Detour.  

 

Costs add up fast!

I can't find typical numbers for how long molds last...    

Now, if they decide to go for pewter with s 'high' lead content it will be cheaper metal, and as a bonus, it melts at a lower temperature so causes less damage to the molds during casting. (They also don't require as large vents as lead-free pewter because of the lower temperature)

 

They may decide to do party molds first, to handle the KS fulfillment, then make sub-party or single mini molds later as they start seløling retail and get an idea of what sells faster than others. 

 

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