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Confrontation: Classic

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11 minutes ago, kristof65 said:

it could very well be a combination of both.  One bad actor surrounded by incompetence. I've noticed that bad actors often surround themselves with incompetence. 


Yeah- after what Paizo said, I'm convinced this is what happened with Ninja Division.


I could see the same thing going on at Sans Detour, but the incompetence has to be even more egregious here.  

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15 minutes ago, kristof65 said:


I was surprised by this mornings update - I didn't think that they'd blatantly ask for more cash this soon. 

 

 

the plot thickens...might it be possible that all the KS money already is gone down the drain and they need a cash influx to keep up appearances?

1 hour ago, Grefven said:

Yeah, I see your point and I agree with it. Do you know of where those other cases have been held? It would be interesting to see if they are american based only, or if kickstarter has managed to bring any non-US projects to court.

 

I have read about a couple of cases in the US, was it the Attorney General (or some other official) in the state of Washington that went after a KS undelivered scammer that was the first one? I also believe I read about a case in Italy last year? Might have been Germany. Sorry I have not saved notes on the specifics.

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1 hour ago, odinsgrandson said:

NEW NEWS!

Sans Common Sense have graciously reopened the pledge manager and WILL ONCE AGAIN BE OFFERING THE CELEBRATION BOX!

Wow.  That's... A lot sooner than I would have expected.  I was expecting a few weeks at least. 

 

For me though, it just doesn't feel worth the risk, especially with the price increase. 

 

And wow, they're actually talking refunds for those who wanted the plastic...  Colour me curious, with a raised eyebrow, but there's just waaaaay too many red flags already for me to contemplate a buy-in at this point. 

 

Do I want it to succeed? Yup. But man, those glaaaaring red flags.... 

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1 hour ago, Maledrakh said:

 

the plot thickens...might it be possible that all the KS money already is gone down the drain and they need a cash influx to keep up appearances?

 

I have read about a couple of cases in the US, was it the Attorney General (or some other official) in the state of Washington that went after a KS undelivered scammer that was the first one? I also believe I read about a case in Italy last year? Might have been Germany. Sorry I have not saved notes on the specifics.

 

 

There have been a few cases in the US where an attorney general of some state has taken a Kickstarter creator to task.

The first one that I remember hearing about was for the board game "The Doom that Came to Atlantic City."

There was a single backer who took Star Citizen to court, and was awarded a 'refund' of sorts (he had given Star Citizen a LOT of money).

The Coolest Cooler campaign went to retail, and it seemed like they intended to ignore their backers for a while.  A court ruling made it so that the backers got their coolers.

On the other hand, attorney generals have also dismissed cases- like with Super Dungeon Legends (the attorney general said that the evidence indicates that said Kickstarer's failure is not criminal, and indicated that backers were free to pursue the mostly broke company with a civil suit).

So far, all of the examples I know of are in the US.

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1 hour ago, WhiteWulfe said:

Wow.  That's... A lot sooner than I would have expected.  I was expecting a few weeks at least. 

 

For me though, it just doesn't feel worth the risk, especially with the price increase. 

 

And wow, they're actually talking refunds for those who wanted the plastic...  Colour me curious, with a raised eyebrow, but there's just waaaaay too many red flags already for me to contemplate a buy-in at this point. 

 

Do I want it to succeed? Yup. But man, those glaaaaring red flags.... 

 

 

- This update is making me think that this project is more about incompetence with an unhealthy amount of safety netting than a true scam with criminal intent.

If they intend to deliver, then offering refunds is a great idea.  Seriously, it will cost them significantly more to produce and ship a pledge than it will to refund the 300 Euros.

 

The trouble is that I suspect it is still net negative at $500 (they're still only charging $2 per mini).


I can imagine how they did their math.  They called up their caster, the caster told them how much "a mini" usually costs on average, they assumed that all of their minis were average, multiplied by 254 and viola!

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2 minutes ago, odinsgrandson said:

The trouble is that I suspect it is still net negative at $500 (they're still only charging $2 per mini).


I can imagine how they did their math.  They called up their caster, the caster told them how much "a mini" usually costs on average, they assumed that all of their minis were average, multiplied by 254 and viola!

The pricing not matching what they're offering is what's got me so.... I'll go with leery or cautious, instead of suspicious.  Some of those minis look like they'd easily be the size of the various Koborlas figures that Reaper puts out - over 2" tall, and feel like they fill out a 2" square base, either due to their sheer size, or their posing.  Those retail for $14.99 or more, so yeah...  Gotta be some sort of simple math with too many assumptions.... 

 

Which is a pity.  I do want the project to succeed, doubly so now that it's in metal.  I'm still going to wait for the retail release, mainly because I only want the wolves and minotaurs... 

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I'm not in the business of mini manufacturing but that sounds like some really REALLY simple math there if that is what's going on. A lot of those models look like multi piece casts. Those prices also don't seem to allow for potentially necessary recasts etc. And wasn't this supposed to be a game? Who carries a 10kg board game around. How are they going to package these for shipping? 

I have to give them that though their campaign is very entertaining. I'm not even a backer and still interested.

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I agree that the math is bad, but Sans Detour are either outright lying or they're doing their math very wrong.

Here's what they said in upate 56:
 

Quote

As we’ve pointed out in the previous news update, “the cost per miniature of each metal figure is much higher than in plastic”. In fact, we’re making almost no money on the boxes already sold during the Kickstarter. 



So- they believe that they have costed out the price of the metal miniatures at the $299 Euro price, and end up with a small profit.  So they believe (or at least say) that producing those 254 miniatures in metal will cost a little less than 299.

If they think that 'a mini' costs $1 (which is a low average for human sized minis) then that works out.  They could even pay as much as $1.30 per mini and it would still work out in their favor (at least at the current exchange rates).  $1.30 probably isn't a bad average for a human mini.  They'd still need to take a hit on the molds and shipping (I presume that's what the new deal is for).


They definitely don't figure that a wolfen is four times as much pewter as a normal human mini, and aren't accounting for the MANY very large models that we're looking at.

 

 


 

They claim that the value of the box is "over" $1350- which works out to an average of $5 each mini and is WAY below MSRP for the set (MSRP would probably be triple that number).  Part of me really wonders how they got this number.  

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I don't really understand what happens to the rest of the project? I mean let's say the found a way to really manufacture the minis for under 299$ and got an amazing flat rate shipping deal with a courier....what about the game? Do the characters not come with like idk cards? Or in blisters? Packaging can be quite pricey especially for so many models. And them being metal will not make easier. Any ideas on their plans there?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Glamberry said:

Any ideas on their plans there?

I think the key is that no one really knows their plans, including them.  

From the get go, this seemed like a company winging it. 

 

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@Glamberry I think they would come with no plastic packaging and in zip-lock bags with the cards poked in or packed separately like a lot of KS do, like you say getting enough blisters for 250+ minis x 1200+ boxes i think that would cost quite a few thousand

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9 hours ago, Original Timmy said:

@Glamberry I think they would come with no plastic packaging and in zip-lock bags with the cards poked in or packed separately like a lot of KS do, like you say getting enough blisters for 250+ minis x 1200+ boxes i think that would cost quite a few thousand

 

That's exactly my worry. I supported the legends of Signum KS and their main delay was on the character cards because of their print house being late as well as the carton used being too thin so they had to reprint. Sticking a card in with a metal mini is going to scratch it up for sure and 250+ metal minis without proper packaging sounds to me like a lot of potential damage to the models too.

I kind of understand that the minis are the main focus but there seems to be no consideration for the Game aspects at all. I guess they just abandoned that concept all together.

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On 6/12/2019 at 9:34 AM, Glamberry said:

Any ideas on their plans there?

 

From their previous Confrontation army cards, their plans seem to be to enter the Guiness Book of World Records for the most icons ever in a game. :lol:

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New update:

 

Miniature Market takes 400 Metal Celebration Boxes -- Miniature Market prend 400 Celebration Box Metal
Posted by SANS-DETOUR
CREATOR

 

Hello everyone

Miniature Market, the American online game store, has confirmed their reservation of 400 Metal Celebration Boxes. The confidence they’re giving us is a great boost for Confrontation Classic and is excellent news for players on the other side of the Atlantic. In addition, we’re also in contact with various European distributors in order to ensure the deployment of the game on all territories. We’ll keep you informed each time about any agreements made with each of these.

We’re quite happy with the confidence that Miniature Market is putting in the release of Confrontation Classic. Our teams are also even more motivated considering that more good news will soon be announced.

Confrontation Classic will not be sold in stores as a complete box, but in the form of factions. We’ll soon be offering those for sale, so that anyone can participate, no matter what their budget.

The implications of this reservation

Most of the first 500 boxes of Confrontation Classic Metal have already been reserved. The last remaining boxes at the price of 499 euros including taxes (approx. $562) can be reserved until Wednesday July 31st 2019 at midnight, through the pledge manager. Past this date, or once all 500 boxes have been reserved, the Metal Celebration Box will go up to 599 euros (approx. $674).

The timetable for the start of the deliveries remains unchanged, it’s even reinforced by the addition of professionals – it will begin at the end of 2019.

More offers are also available on the pledge manager, such as the not-to-be-missed resin Collector’s Choice and the Gaming Selections. Others will soon be offered, such as metal add-ons.

See you quite soon on Aarklash!

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